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Army M4 vs. Marine M16A4

Rocketman

Rockets Up
Contributor
I already thought the addition of table 2 was bullshit but using the acog for table 1 is complete and utter bullshit that pisses on the marksmanship heritage of our past. I've read too many things today that have raised my blood pressure.

The basic iron sight marksmanship skills learned at table 1 are a must have to allow continued grow as killers of men. I'm concerned that table 1 can be shot with the MCO. How can you NOT qual as an expert using a 4 powered scope with ranging lines over a known distance course. I guess that's maybe the point.......

IMHO They should continue to learn the basics and build from there.

That's what avaitors do correct. Or do you look for the switch with the most paint rubbed off before you consider what to move? :D

Does using a semi-auto magazine-fed rifle shit on our marksmanship heritage?

Not as long as most of those rapid fire rounds are aimed fire.
 

Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
IMHO the combination of Table 1 and Table 2 quals makes today's Marines a much better "field rifleman" than I was by far. Deploying grunt units get additional training as well with Table 3 etc.

I thought Table 1 is good marksmanship training. Table 2...If you score less than 90 points - You might be mildly retarded. The movers move at a snail pace and during the double taps and T-boxes... your like 7, 15, and 25 meters away. Not that hard or worth the time either - especially with RCOs.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
I never thought I'd live to see the day: gun nerds. Not 'gun nuts' ... but nerds.

I weep for the future ....
:)
 

sodajones

Combat Engineer
What happened to train like you fight? I agree that initial training should be on irons and it seems like it still is, but the optics in use today are a superior aiming device. Does using a semi-auto magazine-fed rifle shit on our marksmanship heritage?


I'm all for training like you fight. Hammer drills, unknown distance targets, etc. That's all good practice that I believe most non-grunt units don't get enough of (can't speak for the 03's).

I am most adamant about the fact that basic marksmanship does not start with a glass optic. My father always taught (and I think PMIs would agree) that learning to properly use an iron sight is the first step to good marksmanship.

If you want to learn how to use a glass optic really well, it still starts with learning how to use iron sights well. Irons are much more unforgiving, and therefore force the shooter to have great emphasis of focus on proper sight alignment, sight picture, and focus on the front sight.

I think a proper analogy would be the comparison of GPS and basic land nav skills with a compass. Even if you have a GPS, if you understand your land nav you're going to make a better decision and interpret the GPS better than the guy off the street that doesn't know dick about land nav. What if that ACOG or that GPS is broken during combat? I don't like playing the "what if" game but it's a realistic contingency that must be faced.

Something else to consider. Drill. We don't use drill directly in combat anymore and yet it is an integrated part of our history, culture, heritage, and a means of teaching and preserving good order and discipline. Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert rifleman, these ratings will mean nothing if we no longer have to earn them. I understand things always change, but the Corps puts a lot of effort into preserving itself. I continue to see it lose little pieces here and there. This competition of marksmanship is a very big piece.

And now I just wrote a much longer post than I ever intended. I get very passionate about this gun club sometimes.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
What if that ACOG or that GPS is broken during combat?


You're pretty much dicked if your RCO breaks as you take the rear sights/carrying handle off of the M16A4 to mount the RCO on the rail... Just hope you have your pec15 mounted and that you can see the laser.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Personal philosophy:

ALWAYS have iron sights available and installed -- flat top or carry handle -- if you're using any type of electronic/glass sight.
If electronics/glass can work ... they can fail. Iron sights, however, are there to stay ...
 

pourts

former Marine F/A-18 pilot & FAC, current MBA stud
pilot
I am most adamant about the fact that basic marksmanship does not start with a glass optic. My father always taught (and I think PMIs would agree) that learning to properly use an iron sight is the first step to good marksmanship.

And it still is. Like mmx1 said, 1st qual still done with iron sights later quals are done with RCO.
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
Personal philosophy:

ALWAYS have iron sights available and installed -- flat top or carry handle -- if you're using any type of electronic/glass sight.
If electronics/glass can work ... they can fail. Iron sights, however, are there to stay ...

Word to that!!! Iron sights may not be 'hot $hit' like the ACOGs and whatnot but they pretty much work without fail.
 

sodajones

Combat Engineer
You're pretty much dicked if your RCO breaks as you take the rear sights/carrying handle off of the M16A4 to mount the RCO on the rail... Just hope you have your pec15 mounted and that you can see the laser.


I have one of these attached behind my ACOG. It stays compact and then you push a button and it flips up into position. I also use a Larue mount for the ACOG that will quick release. Call me a gear queer.

If they really apply the RCO to table 1 I will lose my ----ing mind.
 

C420sailor

Former Rhino Bro
pilot
I'm not a fan of glass. It has its place I guess, but I don't even know where I'd go to shoot in excess of 200-300 yards. At that range, irons are more fun and are more of a challenge, IMO. I don't hunt---I could see the need there. I'm the guy who shows up to the range with a rifle or two, goes prone in the dirt, snaps in, and does work. Sometimes I'll use a sandbag. Never saw any sport in the guys with the bench rests and the sort. Call me old fashioned?
 

Bevo16

Registered User
pilot
likes irons

I don't think that there is any right or wrong. It's just what you want and what you like.

I will offer up that I was anti red-dot for a while. That opinion was formed by a SEAL Master Chief that was training me without my knowledge. He wanted me to shoot with irons before cheating. Once he saw me shoot with irons, he passed on his EOTech recommendation and I strapped one on. For where we shoot (a tactical range in Mississippi where all SEALs train), the advantage of a red-dot is apparent right off the bat.

I really like the precision of a red dot. I hit a dime 3 out of 3 times at 25 yards with the EOTech on. That's pretty cool, and that kind of precision is hard with irons. The front blade is just to damn fat. I am confident that I can hit a vital area size target with about 75% accuracy at 200 yards. I have proven that on the range. But when you are shooting and moving, the toys help even for the best shooters in the world. That's why the use them.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
I'll go for both ... ol' school irons & high-tech electronics/glass. Just like in my airplanes ...

I like lots of everything. :)
 

Rocketman

Rockets Up
Contributor
I was taught old school. KD course, tight sling and all. Out to 500 yards I used to make fun of shooters with glass on their M1A's, FAL's, AR's etc. Right up to the point where I stopped being able to see the front sight post. That kind of changed my attitude.

With good fundamentals being a given, anything that gets you more hits is a good thing. Hadji won't care. Dead is dead.
 

raptor10

Philosoraptor
Contributor
Perfect Sight Picture
Perfect Sight Alignment
Smooth and steady trigger pull and bang!

Cathartic really.
 

Rocketman

Rockets Up
Contributor
Perfect Sight Picture
Perfect Sight Alignment
Smooth and steady trigger pull and bang!

Cathartic really.

don't forget natural point of aim........and the most important part is that the tango gets his virgins. Everybody is happy :D

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