An age old question

[Friggity]

I know this may have been talked about on this forum before, but I couldn't find any solid answer. My question is regarding the rank structure of midshipmen vice ODs and MECEPs. I've been in the regs all day and can't find anything that states where OCs and MECEPs measure up compared to midshipmen.

Some details. I am a MECEP about 5 weeks from commissioning. For some reason I have been blessed (sarcasm) with an Company XO billet for my last semester. Not that I'm complaining, I know a position of leadership is an honor, but when senioritis is kicking into over drive and you just want to get back to the damn fleet, the last thing you want to do is babysit some midshipmen trying to figure out how to be a CO. It reminds me of a quote from some obscure cartoon I saw as a child, "aww now ain't that cute... BUT IT'S WRONG!" such is my world.

The problem actually lies with a MIDN 1/C that is acting as BNCO. After sending SNM an email as well as the BNXO and my own Company CO requesting that we all get together to discuss our communications difficulties I received quite the nasty little email in response in which SNM proceeded to lecture me on the condescending tone of my request for a meeting. Additionally SNM informed me that this tone displayed an individualistic attitude, aww hell you gotta read this paragraph for yourself.

"Secondly, the tone in which you wrote this email represents an condescending attitude on your part. This continued attitude is unacceptable and highlights an individualistic mindset."

For reference here is the entire content of my email.
"Midshipmen,

I would like for us to hold a meeting tomorrow in the conference room immediately following Delta drill. I am certain that MIDN Company CO and I are both available at that time. If this does not work for you I can do immediately following normal drill, I believe MIDN Company CO is available at that time as well (Correct me if I am wrong on that). The purpose of this meeting is to discuss the disconnect between Delta and Battalion, and to cover other related issues.

R/
SGT So-and-so"

Now I realize it isn't the sweetest email in the world but after three years at an NROTC I am under the impression we as OCs and MECEPs are here to assist the Midshipmen when we see a problem. My entire intention was to fix the communication problem and be done with it, but after being told that attempting to arrange a meeting fix a communication problem somehow equates to an individualistic attitude..... Houston we have a problem.

This is the paragraph that elevated me from slightly annoyed to irate.

"Thirdly, NROTC is a training environment, and as a member of such you are expected to uphold and support the student-run chain of command from your assigned billet as well as your position as a Sergeant in the US Marine Corps. Thus, every billet, whether a 4/C MIDN or a GySgt, that is above a company XO will be addressed with the proper respect, this includes signing your emails "V/r" This is an elementary concept which was already addressed from your previous email, and ties into my second point. I trust that this problem will not recur."

Forgive me for getting butt-hurt, but here we have a midshipman instructing an NCO on the proper way to end an email. It seems SNM somehow thinks they somehow deserve a "very" respectfully salutation vice a "respectfully" or "regards" salutation. This of course must be due to their vast combat experience and time served. You have got to be kidding me. I about shit myself when I read the "elementary concept" bit, that is the most condescending and disrespectful thing a midshipman ever dared say to me. In my eye this is more or less calling me ignorant.

All in all my question is do I have any right to dress down this midshipman or am I just SOL in the grand scheme of things because of the politics involved in an NROTC. I can't stand the thought that this could actually be allowed to happen. What the hell are MECEPs here for if not to assist the midshipmen? That would be a waste of a valuable asset. I believe a MECEP or OC should be able to break the chain of command when necessary to ensure a smooth ebb and flow in a unit without fear of a power tripping or insecure midshipman ripping them a new one and being so blatantly disrespectful.

 

[wlawr005]

Personally, I think that both of you have very little respect for each other and that is causing a break down in your ability to communicate.

We deal with these issues daily, and as a SGT, you should be better able to control you attitude and manage the direction of the conversation. Yes, MIDN do sometimes handle situations inappropriately when placed in leadership positions ahead of more senior, and arguably, more knowledgeable fleet returnees. The question I ask myself is how long am I going to keep up the attitude of "this MIDN doesn't know shit, and how dare he address me that way?" Like it or not, that MIDN is the BCO, and in all of your years in the Corps, I am sure you understand the importance of followership.

It's fine to address deficiencies in MIDN around the unit, but it's never okay to break the chain of command. What does that tell the rest of the MIDN about how a chain of command works and the proper flow of communication? I believe that you missed out on a valuable training opportunity by losing your cool and showing this MIDN exactly the wrong way to handle things. If you were in the fleet as a 2ND LT and your company commander (who has probably been in less years than you have) tells you to do something, when are you going to drop the "I'm a fucking prior" attitude, and begin to be an officer?

You are a large part of every MIDN's military education, but don't be that guy who thinks they know everything just because they've been in the military a few years longer. After all, we are placed in ROTC units not to teach, but to learn ourselves. Use this opportunity to take that leadership potential that got you selected to MECEP and hone it into actual skill...

Best regards,

 

[Friggity]

I believe that you missed out on a valuable training opportunity by losing your cool and showing this MIDN exactly the wrong way to handle things.

Whoa, hold on a second. I NEVER lost my cool in front of the midshipman. I'm not sure what you are refering to there. Again the original and only email I have sent to this midshipman is as follows.

"Midshipmen,

I would like for us to hold a meeting tomorrow in the conference room immediately following Delta drill. I am certain that MIDN Company CO and I are both available at that time. If this does not work for you I can do immediately following normal drill, I believe MIDN Company CO is available at that time as well (Correct me if I am wrong on that). The purpose of this meeting is to discuss the disconnect between Delta and Battalion, and to cover other related issues.

R/
SGT So-and-so"

Unless the gap beween what a MECEP and an OC considers to be losing their cool is that large, I never lost my cool. The rest of the quotes come from the email I received from SNM. If you would please cite where you think I have displayed little respect for this midshipman I would very much appreciate it so that I may re-evaluate the situation.

As far as "it's never ok to break the battalion chain of command" I whole heartedly disagree. We as OCs and MECEPs exist within the unit to both learn leadership and teach the midshipmen from our experience in the fleet. I believe that when a MECEP or OC sees a deficiency, such as a breakdown in communication, he or she should be able to address the midshipmen as an OC or MECEP outside of the training rank structure. Call it a training time out or whatever you will. The MECEPs seem to follow this more than the OCs and judging from your response I'm going to assume it is not an incident isolated to my particualr NROTC unit.

 

[wlawr005]

Not that I'm complaining, I know a position of leadership is an honor, but when senioritis is kicking into over drive and you just want to get back to the damn fleet, the last thing you want to do is babysit some midshipmen trying to figure out how to be a CO. It reminds me of a quote from some obscure cartoon I saw as a child, "aww now ain't that cute... BUT IT'S WRONG!" such is my world.

Forgive me for getting butt-hurt, but here we have a midshipman instructing an NCO on the proper way to end an email. It seems SNM somehow thinks they somehow deserve a "very" respectfully salutation vice a "respectfully" or "regards" salutation. This of course must be due to their vast combat experience and time served. You have got to be kidding me. I about shit myself when I read the "elementary concept" bit, that is the most condescending and disrespectful thing a midshipman ever dared say to me. In my eye this is more or less calling me ignorant.

All in all my question is do I have any right to dress down this midshipman or am I just SOL in the grand scheme of things because of the politics involved in an NROTC. I can't stand the thought that this could actually be allowed to happen. What the hell are MECEPs here for if not to assist the midshipmen? That would be a waste of a valuable asset. I believe a MECEP or OC should be able to break the chain of command when necessary to ensure a smooth ebb and flow in a unit without fear of a power tripping or insecure midshipman ripping them a new one and being so blatantly disrespectful.

The above excerpts from your original post tell me a little about your attitude regarding MIDN. I especially like the one about an NCO being told what to do by a MIDN. The fact of the matter is, in an email, you SHOULD open and close it appropriately when addressing those higher in rank than you. Unfortunately SGT, MIDN 1/C is higher in rank according to your battalion rank structure, and I feel that you are having a hard time accepting that. It is in these passages that describe your overall attitude that I find disrespect and cynicism.

Secondly, after your second post, I feel that you also have a general disregard for the OC's in your battalion as well. I refer to your comment about MECEPs generally taking more initiative in leadership roles within your battalion. I would simply like to tell you that I don't judge the Marine Corps by one or two Marines, and would appreciate it if you would extend the same courtesy to me and the Navy as well. I'm sorry that you feel the OCs don't measure up by your standards, but I attend a unit with 150+ active duty students, and there are good and bad leaders on both sides.

Lastly, I urge you to take a new approach with the MIDN. Try and give the MIDN the same respect you would expect from them in return. If that means following proper email etiquette (even with a lowly MIDN) then do it, even if you think it is below you as a SGT of Marines. I guarantee that if you make yourself approachable to the MIDN, they will more openly accept any corrective criticism you may have for them. I find that most Marines with combat experience in my unit have a hard time adjusting to the fact that MIDN are not LCpls that respond well to coersion and yelling. Generally, a little more intellect is required to effectively train someone trying to become an officer in an ROTC unit. Be creative, and do your part when trying to establish the flow of communication.

If it were me, I would take the BCO to the side and have a conversation with him "offline". That way, you don't interfere with the student chain of command, you correct the MIDN privately, and (hopefully) you make yourself more approachable in the future. I can guarantee you will have more success with this method than the "I'm a SGT, you do what you're told" method. Hell, most MIDN don't even have a realistic idea of what a SGT is...most probably think you're just another asshole Marine.

 

[Friggity]

After some further thought I feel the need to break this whole post down just a bit further.

Personally, I think that both of you have very little respect for each other and that is causing a break down in your ability to communicate.

I would really like to know how you deduced the amount of respect I had for this midshipman. Because, a little back story, this midshipman was under my command in a previous bilit and it was partialy because of the exceptional review I gave this midshipman that they were assigned to BNCO. There was a point of time when I thought this was an outstanding midshipman that I considered to be a pier and would have even considered this midshipman a friend. However after this email I have lost most of that respect. Respect is like integrity, it takes years to gain and a second to lose.

We deal with these issues daily, and as a SGT, you should be better able to control you attitude and manage the direction of the conversation. Yes, MIDN do sometimes handle situations inappropriately when placed in leadership positions ahead of more senior, and arguably, more knowledgeable fleet returnees. The question I ask myself is how long am I going to keep up the attitude of "this MIDN doesn't know shit, and how dare he address me that way?" Like it or not, that MIDN is the BCO, and in all of your years in the Corps, I am sure you understand the importance of followership.

Followership is absolutely an important part of leadership. But as referenced in my last post I think you are confused as to who said what here as there has been no conversation. A conversation requires a back and forth flow of communication, I have not yet reacted to this midshipman inregards to the email. Is my current feeling, "How dare this midshipman address me that way". Absolutely, and if I had been an email to any other prior I would have thought the same thing. It is one thing to act as BNCO, it is another to assume that the position somehow bestowes upon you the magical ability to speak to an NCO or petty officer however you please without fear of reprocussion.

I believe that you missed out on a valuable training opportunity by losing your cool and showing this MIDN exactly the wrong way to handle things. If you were in the fleet as a 2ND LT and your company commander (who has probably been in less years than you have) tells you to do something, when are you going to drop the "I'm a fucking prior" attitude, and begin to be an officer?

Two things. First, I brought this here because I wanted some unbiast input on the situation and I would like to know what exactly the relationship between priors and midshipmen is per regulation. My goal is to use this experience as a training opportunity one way or the other. Heck, I'm open to the fact that I could be 100% wrong and any midshipman outranks any prior and can therefore speak to them in a disrespectful manner with no negative consiquences. If this situation had occured between myself and a Corporal MECEP I would be handing him a charge sheet this morning for an Article 91, in which no subordinate/superior relationship is required to be charged.

Second, if you think I haven't thought about the fact that I will be under the command of officers that are many years my junior you sir are dead wrong. It's a part of life in this military and I accepted it long ago.

Hell you as a H-60 crewdog have probably been placed in a position over someone of superior rank while on you bird, but that doesn't mean you're gonna piss on his boot without expecting him to shove it up your ass. My SgtMaj used to AO for me on my 46 and you better believe I never asked him to wash the windows.

You are a large part of every MIDN's military education, but don't be that guy who thinks they know everything just because they've been in the military a few years longer. After all, we are placed in ROTC units not to teach, but to learn ourselves. Use this opportunity to take that leadership potential that got you selected to MECEP and hone it into actual skill...

Best regards,

While I appreciate the condisending tone from a fellow in my same boat, I'll get advice on turning my "leadership potential" into an "actual skill" from someone who read through this enough to realize that I have not yet showed any blatent disrespect toward this midshipman, but thanks for trying.

 

[Friggity]

The above excerpts from your original post tell me a little about your attitude regarding MIDN. I especially like the one about an NCO being told what to do by a MIDN. The fact of the matter is, in an email, you SHOULD open and close it appropriately when addressing those higher in rank than you. Unfortunately SGT, MIDN 1/C is higher in rank according to your battalion rank structure, and I feel that you are having a hard time accepting that. It is in these passages that describe your overall attitude that I find disrespect and cynicism.

Secondly, after your second post, I feel that you also have a general disregard for the OC's in your battalion as well. I refer to your comment about MECEPs generally taking more initiative in leadership roles within your battalion. I would simply like to tell you that I don't judge the Marine Corps by one or two Marines, and would appreciate it if you would extend the same courtesy to me and the Navy as well. I'm sorry that you feel the OCs don't measure up by your standards, but I attend a unit with 150+ active duty students, and there are good and bad leaders on both sides.

Lastly, I urge you to take a new approach with the MIDN. Try and give the MIDN the same respect you would expect from them in return. If that means following proper email etiquette (even with a lowly MIDN) then do it, even if you think it is below you as a SGT of Marines. I guarantee that if you make yourself approachable to the MIDN, they will more openly accept any corrective criticism you may have for them. I find that most Marines with combat experience in my unit have a hard time adjusting to the fact that MIDN are not LCpls that respond well to coersion and yelling. Generally, a little more intellect is required to effectively train someone trying to become an officer in an ROTC unit. Be creative, and do your part when trying to establish the flow of communication.

If it were me, I would take the BCO to the side and have a conversation with him "offline". That way, you don't interfere with the student chain of command, you correct the MIDN privately, and (hopefully) you make yourself more approachable in the future. I can guarantee you will have more success with this method than the "I'm a SGT, you do what you're told" method. Hell, most MIDN don't even have a realistic idea of what a SGT is...most probably think you're just another asshole Marine.

Look OC, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you. You've obviously made your judgements about me and I've made mine about you. Truth of the matter is that most of the midshipmen consider me to be one of the nicest MECEPs in the unit. I'm the softy that never yells or belittles them like the other marines.

As quoted, my email did end with a proper salutation. R/ which is widely accepted, please find me a regulation that says otherwise and I will eat my words.

The "take the BCO to the side and have a conversation with him "offline"." is the first intelligent thing you have said and I appreciate that. That was in fact what I was wanting to do with this situation. I wouldn't dress down a BNCO in front of their peers.

Tell ya what, I'll buy you a beer when we're both down in P-cola and we can bitch and argue about who's right and who's wrong there.

 

[HH-60H]

I can't stand the thought that I wasted 2 mins reading the first post where some SGT got his little ego hurt. Your condescending tone here in this thread and in the emails is extremely nauseating and highlight the chip on your shoulder. There is very little more annoying in a wardroom, or a MIDN unit, than a prior enlisted who thinks he's better and knows more than everyone else. Maybe your MIDN is AFU, but you've got bigger problems to worry about.

I've worked with some great prior enlisted, one or two of which are also members on this very board, and whatever they did to accept that they are in the same boat as the next non-prior guy just trying to get through whatever crap sandwich is being served, made the unit a better and stronger place.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I'm with Friggity here...I think the Midshipman in question has the makings of a little power hungry prick. Friggity could have been a little more tactful but would this Midshipman tell a NCO on the ROTC staff to end e-mails to him with V/R?

Friggity....you have 5 weeks to commissioning and then it all won't matter any more. You can do that standing on your head. Fuck the little prick. Ignore him.

I don't think OCs and MECEPs shouldn't be mixed in with the Midshipman anyway. I know when my brother taught ROTC they didn't mix except academically for the required Naval Science classes.

 

[A4sForever]

 

[PerDiem]

but i attend a unit with 150+ active duty students

holy shit!!

 

[A4sForever]

...I don't think OCs and MECEPs shouldn't be mixed in with the Midshipman anyway... I know when my brother taught ROTC they didn't mix except academically for the required Naval Science classes.

Is MECEP kinda' like what I know as NESEP ... only for Marines?? 40+ years ago -- we NEVER 'mixed' NESEPs w/ MIDN's (and I think Marines were in the NESEP program as well while obtaining technical/scientific degrees) ... the enlisted folks had their own thing goin' and only showed up at the Unit for their personal admin stuff.

And NO NROTC MIDN ever felt 'saucy' enough to give one of the NROTC enlisted instructor staff any shit -- they were usually Navy & Marine E-5 and better and combat vets and VERY experienced. That's like zero ... none ... never any shit.

If 'we' had ... it would have only happened once and the subject MIDNs skin would have been permanently hanging over the hatch to the armory as a perpetual testimony to his folly ...

 

[Floppy_D]

holy shit!!

Yeah, he's not kidding. But it seemed to work out pretty well; because with a near-even split of MIDN and OCs, the treatment was equal. If there was just a couple of OCs, I could see where lines might get drawn. The only splits in training was between lower/upperclassman.

@the OP, chewing the kid's ass might be more gratifying, but he's just going to put "asschewing" in his bag of tricks from now on. Maybe you could solve this over a pizza or beer and let him know that while his professionalism is appreciated, sometimes it's important to mellow out a bit. Good chance here to share your experience, so long as you do it correctly and "as a buddy" not "as a SGT."

 

[BusyBee604]

Priors

I've worked with some great prior enlisted, one or two of which are also members on this very board, and whatever they did to accept that they are in the same boat as the next non-prior guy just trying to get through whatever crap sandwich is being served, made the unit a better and stronger place.

+1....My thoughts exactly. In my experience, the performance of our priors was exemplary, both in flight training and operationally in the fleet. The few 'douches' who managed to slip in, were exposed quickly...and either "quick attitude turnaround" or GONE!aperbag_
BzB, ex ET-2(SS)

 

[Maddawg]

Is MECEP kinda' like what I know as NESEP ... only for Marines?? 40+ years ago -- we NEVER 'mixed' NESEPs w/ MIDN's (and I think Marines were in the NESEP program as well while obtaining technical/scientific degrees) ... the enlisted folks had their own thing goin' and only showed up at the Unit for their personal admin stuff.

And NO NROTC MIDN ever felt 'saucy' enough to give one of the NROTC enlisted instructor staff any shit -- they were usually Navy & Marine E-5 and better and combat vets and VERY experienced. That's like zero ... none ... never any shit.

If 'we' had ... it would have only happened once and the subject MIDNs skin would have been permanently hanging over the hatch to the armory as a perpetual testimony to his folly ...

 

[Maddawg]

This is from the summer of 1975. You ask, "...Is MECEP kinda' like what I know as NESEP...only for Marines?? Yes, (in 1975) the difference being that NESEP's were required to major in a "technical" field, any kind of Engineering (but NOT Civil Engr.), or a pure science, i.e., Math, Chemistry, Physics, Oceanography, etc. NO business classes at all.

The MECEP's were allowed Business Classes, but could take any type of Engineering or science, if they so desired. The NESEPs and MECEPs were different units, i.e., the Marines did their own thing, and the Navy guys did their own thing. The Marines had a GySgt. as their class leader, and the Navy had a chief (E-7) as their class leader. 75% of the Navy guys had combat cruises during Vietnam, and 65-75% of the Marines had combat tours inside Vietnam. The Chief in charge of the Book room provided books and whatever was needed for the Navy and the Marines. For social functions, the Navy and Marines were all together for these functions. The Admin Chief (YNC) received the tuition statements for the university for the Navy and Marines students and submitted them all together for all of the Navy/Marine students to be paid by the respective departments (Navy or Marines).

Upon graduation, everybody pretty much got what they requested, MECEPS were allowed to go to Flight School, if they so desired. NESEPS graduated as "Unrestricted Line Officers" and could go do almost anything, except medical corp. or Civil Engr. Corp.

That's the way it was in the Fall of 1975. The next year, 1976, the incoming fleet students had to use their VA educational benefits for their tuition and books (if the Book room had the books they needed in stock, the Chief would check the books out to them, but wasn't allowed to "buy" any books for them), etc., but they were still paid their enlisted salaries and allowed to participate in advancement exams.