Skywalker
Student Naval Aviator
I ask this not as a challenge or retort, but as somebody on the outside trying to find their way in: In light of all the negatives of being a naval aviator mentioned here, what can you guys say in its favor?
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NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention
- Thread starter ChuckMK23
- Start date
I ask this not as a challenge or retort, but as somebody on the outside trying to find their way in: In light of all the negatives of being a naval aviator mentioned here, what can you guys say in its favor?
While you are young and single, a career that means something bigger than just a paycheck, a chance to see the world and job experience (whether management or aviation.)
Once you get older, you have to weigh the priorities of a family and whether or not you think the billets you are assigned to are rewarding. The military is tough on family life - and being away from your wife and children is more of a price than some want to pay. One size does not fit all - it is choice each person has to make for themselves.
Keep in mind that @jtmedli is approaching this after having checked some boxes. His priorities may have changed because he now has that option, but he still had to get to that point where he has those several thousand hours and etc.
As Randy said, this is something bigger than you or a paycheck, and you'll have a lot of fun to boot. Yes, there will be some suck, but enjoy your time when/if you do get in and take pleasure in doing something only a small percentage of the population gets to do. Then, if your priorities have changed, get out. You will have served in many more ways than many today, and that's not an insignificant thing.
As Randy said, this is something bigger than you or a paycheck, and you'll have a lot of fun to boot. Yes, there will be some suck, but enjoy your time when/if you do get in and take pleasure in doing something only a small percentage of the population gets to do. Then, if your priorities have changed, get out. You will have served in many more ways than many today, and that's not an insignificant thing.
As someone who is thrilled to get out at my first opportunity, I also would have absolutely done it again. Sitting at a desk never appealed to me, and I got to travel the world, fly awesome jets, blow shit up, fight our nation's enemies, learn lessons about leadership and myself that I probably never would have otherwise, meet a ton of lifelong friends, and have a great time doing it. It's just not something that makes sense for me to continue doing.
What can I say in favor of military flying?
The flying itself, the people I worked with, the shared goals, the satisfaction I received from the nature of my work in the Recce community; being an officer in the military, and getting to grow as a person in that environment; the adventure that my family and I went through during 28 years. My family enjoyed the lifestyle, overall.
As with anything, it had its ups and downs. There were great times, and the memories are incredible.
The money was good, and the opportunities I had access to were great. Those past years in the military are directly responsible for the reason I enjoy life today.
I had a terrific job offer out of college that I gave serious thought to. I'm sure I'd be quite wealthy with money had I done it. But all I ever wanted to do was fly for the military. And I got to do that.
If I could go back, there is very little I'd change.
FWIW, I'm still pretty open minded about staying or going at my MSR. My mind is not made up. Got a kid on the way so that may change things...or it may not. I'm mostly just echoing the sentiments and things I see and understand from others and myself.
Being a naval aviator (or military aviator in general) is still one of the best jobs you can do. Like I said, best decision I ever made. Things I've gotten to do:
-seen numerous countries
-fly hundreds of hours in support of strike operations on deployment
-save people from dying in the middle of ocean at night
-get treated like a rock star at fleet week new York
-work with some truly fine Americans who taught me more about being a pilot and officer than I can possibly sum up on this forum
-fly helos from VA to CA and back multiple times
-shoot some cool stuff
-teach my peers how to become better pilots and make HAC
-good deal cross countries
-and more that I'm sure I'm leaving out of this and forgetting or just haven't even done yet
What you see in this thread is not a reflection upon most people's time in the Navy. I don't think you'll find too many Naval Aviators who will say anything close to regretting it. Think of this thread as a discussion about the last 10 years more so than the first 10 and don't read too much into it as a new guy. Just get in, fly your ass off, work hard, and enjoy it until it's time for you to "take the devil's money" and then see how things are when that time comes.
My post wasn't meant to pass judgement or belittle your opinion (whatever it may be). Hopefully it wasn't taken that way.
Absolutely not. I just wanted to be clear about it. I have loved my time in the Navy and would fly gray aircraft until they force me out, money be damned, if that was an option for me but that's not really how it works. Right now I'm looking at the second 10 years and don't really see it being nearly as satisfying or 'worth it'. That could change too but we'll see which door I choose when the time comes.
I don't regret joining the Navy at all. It's been a fucking awesome ride, and I was coming from a post college real job to this without some of the "rah rah" service academy/Navy family baggage. You'll see a lot of people (myself included) give honest feedback that borders on complaining because they love the Navy and want to leave it better than they found it. Turns out that's pretty hard.
I was a lurker like you on here back in 07/08 and found this place to be engrossing and full of no shit knowledges about something I wanted to be a part of. I hope you and all the others who have what it takes get selected and go on to be awesome JOs and beyond.
I wouldn't change a thing. But I'd like to get out ASAP. The first ten years (the minimum commitment) is an actual adventure. Once the commitment is up is where people want to bail.
I'm short, everybody wants to get in, most don't want to stay in. I think every person here who has expressed negativity wouldn't change a thing if they had to do it again. It's just that they don't want to continue to do it.
But there is a thread around here that is titled something like, "Why it's good to be in Naval Aviation." It still applies.
To expand on this a bit, I would say that career options and upward mobility start to change as one continues in this business. For some folks, it can work out great. For many, they find themselves pigeonholed into something they didn't sign up for, didn't want, or desire more time for family which they didn't have when they started all this. Coupled with the aircraft shell games, the Navy's ongoing admin dick punch, and often finding one's career options wholly defined by an individual COs perception or worse- timing, it can be enough to send guys packing. That, and these days the airlines are paying well and hiring rapidly.
That said, I agree with Python: I wouldn't change a thing. Good with the bad, this has been a hell of a ride. I have stories to bore my grand kids with, assuming I'm not too senile to remember by then. My Navy career is also far from over- I'm committed to at least a DH tour (I'd like to stay in for at least 8 more years to make 20). But I am also to the point where planning my exit gameplan is a sound strategy.
Just to throw in an opposing view to the doom and gloom of this thread.
I love my job. I've gotten to do 99% of what I've wanted to do in the Navy, there has literally only been one choice I didn't get and it turned out to be a blessing in disguise in the long run. I've been to about 40 different countries in 18 years and I've seen a lot of good and bad stuff.
For me it's not about the money. I'm a single source of income for a family of 5 and we still have the ability to live comfortably and enjoy life. I know I could make more money on the outside but my kids don't want for anything and we still take vacations overseas and I'm still saving for college funds and retirement.
Other careers may have a bigger bank accounts and may drive a nicer cars but I don't really give a shit, I'm happy with what I have.
There's bullshit in every job, I don't care if it's airlines or mailman or in the military. Of course it's in varying degrees but for everyone regardless of what job you do, until the juice isn't worth the squeeze they'll keep doing it. I look forward to going to work everyday and I work with some of the best folks I could hope to be around.
The bottom line, I really doubt that money is a driving factor in anyone's decision to stay or go. It's how much bullshit one is willing to put up with while doing something they enjoy. If folks are coming in to work everyday and not enjoying it, I can't see why they'd stay. The part I think that the senior folks are missing is that enjoyment just isn't money and flying, it's also taking care of families and avoiding endless reindeer games.
I love my job. I've gotten to do 99% of what I've wanted to do in the Navy, there has literally only been one choice I didn't get and it turned out to be a blessing in disguise in the long run. I've been to about 40 different countries in 18 years and I've seen a lot of good and bad stuff.
For me it's not about the money. I'm a single source of income for a family of 5 and we still have the ability to live comfortably and enjoy life. I know I could make more money on the outside but my kids don't want for anything and we still take vacations overseas and I'm still saving for college funds and retirement.
Other careers may have a bigger bank accounts and may drive a nicer cars but I don't really give a shit, I'm happy with what I have.
There's bullshit in every job, I don't care if it's airlines or mailman or in the military. Of course it's in varying degrees but for everyone regardless of what job you do, until the juice isn't worth the squeeze they'll keep doing it. I look forward to going to work everyday and I work with some of the best folks I could hope to be around.
The bottom line, I really doubt that money is a driving factor in anyone's decision to stay or go. It's how much bullshit one is willing to put up with while doing something they enjoy. If folks are coming in to work everyday and not enjoying it, I can't see why they'd stay. The part I think that the senior folks are missing is that enjoyment just isn't money and flying, it's also taking care of families and avoiding endless reindeer games.
To slightly change the subject, I don't see why the services don't recognize that the current airline hiring boom is a serious factor but a limited window. There are any number of reasons why guys may think the grass is greener on the non-AD side of the fence, but none of that matters nearly as much (from a cynical, utilitarian view) if it's not possible to get to the other side of the fence. Right now, most of us have a realistic chance to go to a major at MSR, or worst-case after a year or two in the regionals. That will not be the case forever. For one thing, in about 10 years, the majority of the majors will have turned over almost their entire pilot force and will have the youngest group at the controls in a generation. This will automatically make it much more difficult to get hired, especially for folks at MSR who often just barely meet the hour minimums. Additionally, with the severely-hobbled flight hour programs we're currently experiencing, many of those approaching MSR in the nearer term will also have a more difficult time getting in the door as they leave their fleet JO tours with pretty lean logbooks. (Of course, that doesn't make people want to stay in so much as it limits their opportunities elsewhere, but it still should help retention).
My point is that leadership should recognize that to keep retention healthy in the near-term will, in my opinion, require very substantial bonuses (much more even than the new AF bonus) in order to at least make the military competitive with the airlines within that time window (while hoping that most people won't realize/care about the loss in potential airline seniority and the attached pay and QOL). But that bonus won't need to stick around forever. In a few years they'll be able to go back to much smaller numbers simply because the outside opportunities will be comparatively few and far between.
None of that is to say there aren't bigger and more complicated issues at play here, but overhauling a culture is not something you can do fast enough to keep the current force healthily manned. And call me a cynic, but I feel confident that if you put enough money on the table, retention will increase, regardless of how principled we all want to think we are.
My point is that leadership should recognize that to keep retention healthy in the near-term will, in my opinion, require very substantial bonuses (much more even than the new AF bonus) in order to at least make the military competitive with the airlines within that time window (while hoping that most people won't realize/care about the loss in potential airline seniority and the attached pay and QOL). But that bonus won't need to stick around forever. In a few years they'll be able to go back to much smaller numbers simply because the outside opportunities will be comparatively few and far between.
None of that is to say there aren't bigger and more complicated issues at play here, but overhauling a culture is not something you can do fast enough to keep the current force healthily manned. And call me a cynic, but I feel confident that if you put enough money on the table, retention will increase, regardless of how principled we all want to think we are.
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Deleted member 24525
Guest
You raise some good points, but I really don't think it's about the money...it REALLY is culture, and the BS...to a point.
35k for 14 years is not enough money to put up with the BS. BUT if they REALLY want to make it an easy decision pay 500k for 5 years or 800k for ten years or something like that.