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NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention

Farva01

BKR
pilot
Care to explain LVC to the unwashed?

I'm glad people are thinking about how to make Nuggets faster, but shorting VFA Cat Is is entirely a self created, temporary problem. I'm not even worried about the fleet seats, since PERS could make some Super JO billets in a finger snap and fill them tomrrow. Whether they do or not is up to them.

With respect to airspace, if we need more, let's ask Congress to un-BRAC some places in middle America that would love the money.
My plan would actually take longer to get a JO to the fleet, but they would have a lot more experience making their time in the fleet more valuable.
 

UInavy

Registered User
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
The Carolinas seem workable until you start considering EIS and noise issues. Lest we forget the NC OLF idea that we’re not using.

Pretty sure I saw the NC OLF land for sale on GSA auctions fairly recently. Looks like we were quietly giving it back.

I'm afraid that new starts are going to be a hard sell->non-starter in any foreseeable future. It's a good thing that we built the interstate system when we did. Can you imagine trying to imminent domain all that land now?
 

Farva01

BKR
pilot
I thought that too, but when I was in Kingsville, the dudes who tracked E2/C2 went to the boat right after intermediate, and they all did fine.

What would have helped a ton in flight school advanced? A RADAR and other mission type systems. A few flights into the Hornet syllabus and I'm trying to run a missile timeline intercept on a piece of gear that is completely new and that I have no frame of reference for while trying to learn how to fly a new airplane that has a different cockpit layout and software load from the sim. (AWI in a B model because that's what you've got? That is the definition of negative value training). It also didn't help that many of my flights were with WSOs who really couldn't help me with flying skills and workload management. "You're a single seat pilot, I'm really here as an evaluator while you figure it out."

Bingo. I haven’t taken a hard look at the current VTJ advanced syllabus, but I bet my last paycheck it could use an update to focus on the “sensor management” a great deal more.
 

Farva01

BKR
pilot
Farva, is it accurate to say that "commercial adversaries" like ATAC and Draken are the future?

One of these days I will learn how to quote multiple posts...

Yes contract air support (or CAS to really confuse the issue) are going to start taking place a lot of the adversary duties. However they are not buying new aircraft.

For the Navy the F-5 is probably going to be the percentage threat. NAWDC’s F-16’s are going to start dying in 2023 unless they get the mid-life upgrade (unlikely) and VFA-204 and VFC-12 are going to be flying broke-dick Charlie’s till they get broke-dick low lot Rhino’s.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
LVC incorporates several way of connecting real aircraft with simulators and synthetic tracks. At its most basic level, it's injecting a synthetic track into MIDS for training, I.E a section of Rhinos could train against a section of synthetic red air represented as a MIDS track. At its most complex, real aircraft can be connected to sims and synthetic tracks so that everyone is operating in the same live-virtual world, if that makes sense. People in sims will "see" real aircraft, and those real aircraft will "see" the sim aircraft via MIDS. Pretty cool concept that has a lot of future potential. Imagine squadrons in Lemoore, Whidbey and Pt Mugu all doing mission rehearsal for an LFE through their interconnected sims before they get to AW Fallon, or a real operational strike.

You mentioned NGTS, but everyone keeps saying that LVC will be great once we get NGTS online. But they've been saying that for 4+ years. They'll get it eventually, but not everyone is on the same timeline.

The major issue with LVC that I kept hearing about was Classification. Want to do AWF with an CVW of the future? Great, as long as you don't expect everyone to participate because not everyone can interface through the LVC at a TS level. Solvable? Sure. But remember my comments about PMA-205 in another thread.

And as an amusing side, I just tried to go to PMA-205 to check on something and I got this:

21117

Networking Accomplished!
(yes, I know you can get to the page from within NAVAIR's menu, eventually)
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The major issue with LVC that I kept hearing about was Classification.
I know what you're getting at here, but I don't think it's going to be an issue. The network is going to remain GENSER, then platform capabilities are what they are. We operate with that kind of mix today.
 

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor
One of these days I will learn how to quote multiple posts...

Yes contract air support (or CAS to really confuse the issue) are going to start taking place a lot of the adversary duties. However they are not buying new aircraft.

For the Navy the F-5 is probably going to be the percentage threat. NAWDC’s F-16’s are going to start dying in 2023 unless they get the mid-life upgrade (unlikely) and VFA-204 and VFC-12 are going to be flying broke-dick Charlie’s till they get broke-dick low lot Rhino’s.

T-X is a decent possibility for a ground based adversary if the Navy is smart enough to jump on.

With respect to creating smarter, more capable nuggets, I’m all for it. I’ve been advocating the same for helo types as the Navy buys their new helo trainer. I think, unfortunately, the price tag is too much for our manning model wherein we keep pumping people into the left side and shrug our shoulders on the right side.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I know what you're getting at here, but I don't think it's going to be an issue. The network is going to remain GENSER, then platform capabilities are what they are. We operate with that kind of mix today.

If they've made progress, great, but as of two TS ENARGs ago (okay, I guess it's 3 now...time flies), F-35 was what was causing the issue. It wasn't that you couldn't emulate data, it was that anything externally touching the node had to be TS because the network internally was TS . I'm over-simplifying it, but you get the idea. It appeared to be a more IT-generated problem than a technical capability issue.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
If they've made progress, great, but as of two TS ENARGs ago (okay, I guess it's 3 now...time flies), F-35 was what was causing the issue. It wasn't that you couldn't emulate data, it was that anything externally touching the node had to be TS because the network internally was TS . I'm over-simplifying it, but you get the idea. It appeared to be a more IT-generated problem than a technical capability issue.
In other words, "sanitizing this to downgrade it is too hard, so we're just going to punt and overclassify everything." Would that that's the first time I'd heard of that phenomenon. :rolleyes:
 

whitesoxnation

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I thought that too, but when I was in Kingsville, the dudes who tracked E2/C2 went to the boat right after intermediate, and they all did fine.

What would have helped a ton in flight school advanced? A RADAR and other mission type systems. A few flights into the Hornet syllabus and I'm trying to run a missile timeline intercept on a piece of gear that is completely new and that I have no frame of reference for while trying to learn how to fly a new airplane that has a different cockpit layout and software load from the sim. (AWI in a B model because that's what you've got? That is the definition of negative value training). It also didn't help that many of my flights were with WSOs who really couldn't help me with flying skills and workload management. "You're a single seat pilot, I'm really here as an evaluator while you figure it out."

I remember my night tac form flight at 101. I think we took off pinky and I couldn’t figure out how to dim the lights to the right combination to allow me to see properly at night because I’d never flown that lot/jet type. I pretended to be visual when I was blind almost the entire time after it got dark.

How realistic is LVC? I’m not a fan of anything simulated if it is used as a replacement for real training w/ real metal.

You can do a an event in the sim and rock it because all the systems are perfect and things are 1s and 0s when you would probably get slayed in the jet dealing with how things work for real.

T-45 could be useful red air, especially with an EA and TCTS pod. When you have people resorting to “ghost groups” to satisfy T&R red air requirements... anything can be useful.

Maybe if we retained more people and kept people in the cockpit we’d reduce our training burden for not only VTs but for initial fleet codes we could use sorties for more useful training... but that’ll never happen.
 
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Python

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Bingo. I haven’t taken a hard look at the current VTJ advanced syllabus, but I bet my last paycheck it could use an update to focus on the “sensor management” a great deal more.

Have you seen the VMTS T-45s at Pensacola? They basically have an unclassified APG-73 for a/a and a/g. Plus datalink threats (or generate them from the other cockpit) to create LVC style fake bandits.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
In other words, "sanitizing this to downgrade it is too hard, so we're just going to punt and overclassify everything." Would that that's the first time I'd heard of that phenomenon. :rolleyes:

My limited understanding is that it was more complicated than that. As with everything the Navy procures, it meets the initial specs, but when the specs change (not sending certain info, in this case), the software needs to be rewritten, which of course it wasn't designed to be rewritten in the first place.

The same issue happened to both the Hornet and the H-60 with the AOP (or whatever jet guys call the system software). As capabilities were getting added, the code was getting bloated, and you couldn't rewrite the code without starting over. I lost track of where VFA went with this, but I think they went the same direction as H-60 and it's now on the top 10 (and I think at least partially funded, if not more so).
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
they also have an officer specialty whose primary job is running MWR’s, hotels and dining halls.
Can’t tell if you’re joking or not, but I think that is incorrect.

Notably, the USAF has an officer specialty for planning & programming, which the USN does not. The USN makes its URL, RL, and Staff Corps officers do planning & programming tours. That’s why Brett327 spent so much time in the Pentagon.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
My limited understanding is that it was more complicated than that. As with everything the Navy procures, it meets the initial specs, but when the specs change (not sending certain info, in this case), the software needs to be rewritten, which of course it wasn't designed to be rewritten in the first place.

The same issue happened to both the Hornet and the H-60 with the AOP (or whatever jet guys call the system software). As capabilities were getting added, the code was getting bloated, and you couldn't rewrite the code without starting over. I lost track of where VFA went with this, but I think they went the same direction as H-60 and it's now on the top 10 (and I think at least partially funded, if not more so).
Not sure what you're referring to WRT bloated code, but F18 software (SCS) are updated every 2 years, with each build bringing new capabilities and CVI features.
 
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