m0tbaillie
Former SWO
Fixed.
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ACLU vs. USNA
- Thread starter MiG15
- Start date
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Fixed.
My main point wasn’t that being hazed or not being hazed made for better soldiers and sailors, which of course doesn’t. Or that over the top stuff should be encouraged. But, that the little things bring fun little memories to your time in service.
A lot of things can be considered hazing, and my point was not to get to strict on every little thing. For example I know some units, whenever you say it is your first time doing something, you have to buy beer for the group (which by most definitions can be considered hazing). Should that sort of thing be banned? What about challenge coins? Should squadron pranks be abolished because it could cause ridicule upon individuals?
A lot of things can be considered hazing, and my point was not to get to strict on every little thing. For example I know some units, whenever you say it is your first time doing something, you have to buy beer for the group (which by most definitions can be considered hazing). Should that sort of thing be banned? What about challenge coins? Should squadron pranks be abolished because it could cause ridicule upon individuals?
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Read this. It's the Marine Corps order on hazing, then ask your question. It will make more sense after that I think.
To back it off a notch to the issue being litigated, I just don't understand the harm in a non-denominational prayer. If you don't feel like participating, then just close your eyes and just accept the fact that you got a couple extra seconds to close your eyes, take a breather and reflect for a second. You don't have to actually listen to the prayer. If the name "God" causes you physical pain, perhaps you should chill the hell out, Damien, put some foamies in your earholes, and get back to trying to take over the world.
As much as non-believers mock the "anthropomorphic" versions of a supreme being, no one can deny that the belief, right or wrong, in same helps many through the struggles and often the dangers of military life. I know my chapel attendance went up while I was in a combat zone. As such, the support of religion, especially in regards to the support of a Chaplain Corps, is very important to the morale of the troops and their combat effectiveness. Some of the more extreme in the ACLU, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, etc crowds actually want to go so far as to abolish the chaplain system. I think suits such as this one at USNA are the first step. The mids in this one are putting their political views ahead of the welfare of their brothers in arms.
As much as non-believers mock the "anthropomorphic" versions of a supreme being, no one can deny that the belief, right or wrong, in same helps many through the struggles and often the dangers of military life. I know my chapel attendance went up while I was in a combat zone. As such, the support of religion, especially in regards to the support of a Chaplain Corps, is very important to the morale of the troops and their combat effectiveness. Some of the more extreme in the ACLU, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, etc crowds actually want to go so far as to abolish the chaplain system. I think suits such as this one at USNA are the first step. The mids in this one are putting their political views ahead of the welfare of their brothers in arms.
Agreed.
On the flip side, mandatory prayer could be looked at as the first step towards "TEAM JESUS CHRIST" in the locker rooms.
We're well on our way towards that already.
Just because someone craps his pants doesn't mean we all need diapers.
VIZKRIEG
KILL
I believe in the perceived pressure by these individuals. Not that it makes sense to me, but that they may have felt it. I will point out, however, that if everyone that was participating has his or her head bowed...guess what they aren't watching you not participate. Just my $ 0.02
The entire point of "perceived pressure" is that if you feel it, you're wrong, not everyone else. You need to correct yourself, not summon the ACLU to correct a problem with everyone else that is, in fact, nonexistant.
Another thing that fall under the umbrella of "perceived pressure" is "get-home-itis". If you've never heard either of these terms, then it is a clear indicator that anytime you experience something that you think requires the help of the ACLU - you need to address the issue with someone senior that you trust in order to give them the opportunity to enlighten you with their experience before you make a serious fucking mistake.
VIZKRIEG
KILL
Yes Sir, I completely agree. I don't think much of these individuals "perceived pressure," just that I know some might feel it. My point was that their pressure was wrongly perceived, because the only ones that would be looking around and noticing who did not participate, were those who were also not participating. If that makes any sense at all.
My point exactly. It's up to the Chaplains to be responsible in their choice of words as far as I'm concerned. What they say and how they choose to say it is what reflects upon whether or not the prayer becomes too specific towards one religion.
Regardless of one's religious views, I don't see the harm in a non denominational prayer. If you are an athiest, great. Simply take the time to HOPE or WISH or whatever you do for the welfare of others. We really want to get rid of 30 seconds in the day where we all take time out to think about someone else, give thanks (to God or someone else) for the things we have in life, and pray (or hope) for the safety of others or the betterment of their lives? If you need those 30 seconds out of 24 hours to think more about yourself, you have bigger issues to tackle. The further away we get from any "moral standard" in our society because it might offend 6 people in the country, the worse off we are.
Don't believe in God. But you are telling me you can't share the sentiments of everyone else that I am thankful for my place in life and hope for the return of our friends from harm's way? Our society is getting more and more selfish by the second.
Don't believe in God. But you are telling me you can't share the sentiments of everyone else that I am thankful for my place in life and hope for the return of our friends from harm's way? Our society is getting more and more selfish by the second.
Like I said before, this issue doesn't really bug me. HOWEVER people keep making the point "what's the big deal with the non-denominational prayer?"
The answer is: NOTHING.
MY point before was that in my experience, the chaplain WAS denominational and threw a "Jesus" into the prayer. Now, for me, a non-religious guy, that wasn't really a big deal to me. However, I can see a more observant Jewish sailor or other sailor of another religion really getting offended by that.
So how do we go about ensuring that the chaplains don't go making prayers christian? (for those that really care).
The answer is: NOTHING.
MY point before was that in my experience, the chaplain WAS denominational and threw a "Jesus" into the prayer. Now, for me, a non-religious guy, that wasn't really a big deal to me. However, I can see a more observant Jewish sailor or other sailor of another religion really getting offended by that.
So how do we go about ensuring that the chaplains don't go making prayers christian? (for those that really care).
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