13 Officers kicked out of Marines including Adam Ballard

[Treetop Flyer]

You pretty much can't get canned for performance. It's almost always character flaws. DUI, cheating, etcetera. 10% is way high. It can't be any higher than about 2%, and that's with medical discharges included.

10% is closer to attrition for OCS. You can get dropped out of there for farting wrong. 10% is on the low end depending on when you look.

It was closer to 40% for PLC Jr's and Sr's in my platoons counting medical

 

[theblakeness]

You pretty much can't get canned for performance. It's almost always character flaws. DUI, cheating, etcetera. 10% is way high. It can't be any higher than about 2%, and that's with medical discharges included.

10% is closer to attrition for OCS. You can get dropped out of there for farting wrong. 10% is on the low end depending on when you look.

Apparently if you get recycled twice for leadership they seperate you. It happened to a guy in my company. He could have been a special case, I suppose.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I don't know enough about the circumstances to comment on the offense (although it sounds shady for sure) but I'm impressed with the way big MC handled it.

I can comment on it. They were clear when we showed up at TBS - officers have integrity. Period. You cheat? You're out.

They told us several times that cheating, and on land nav in particular will get your crank stomped, and that they are looking for it and have found it in the past.

Our SPCs always stressed not to cheat during land nav. I often wondered why they stressed it on land nav. Maybe because they had less control than when we were taking tests, doing FEXs, etc? That, or maybe when you hit the fleet you find out just how little some of your Marines know/understand about land nav.

For the record, I never cheated in TBS. I did "aid" my roommate after he failed his IOC indoc (he was horrible at land nav, and failed indoc solely because of land nav). My other two roommates and I sat down with his map, plotted every box we had been to in the TA, then plotted starting points that would be easy to find. Then we erased all the boxes, so he had a map with starting points on it. He (barely) passed the second time. He's still a phenomenal infantry officer though...

 

[Mustang83]

"Who needs land nav when you have GPS?"

first thing that I thought of...

 

[Clux4]

In this bad economy too, they sure will be picking fruits.

 

[freshy]

Integrity violation....Bad.

Being a douche bag.....worse.

Me drunk?........better.

 

[Uncle Fester]

There is a fine line between cheating and gouge, but the thinness of the line is irrelevant when you take a running long jump over it.

While instructing, I was generally impressed with how the Marines handled their Misfit Toys. The Navy was content to kick them out of flight training - the consensus being that making someone a Shoe was more punishment than sending them to civvieland - but if a Marine was being a clownshoe, MATSG wasn't content until they'd ripped off his bars and broken his sword over their knee. And generally speaking, the young Marines knew it.

 

[HAWK22]

Using the ole land nave matrix is pretty weak, and is definitely cheating. However, we all know how frustrating it is when the red boxes grow legs and walk away from where they are supposed to be. I found a box buried deep under a pile of leaves and sticks simply because I kicked it with my boot. Pure luck. Sometimes those courses are barely maintained.

 

[Swanee]

Using the ole land nave matrix is pretty weak, and is definitely cheating. However, we all know how frustrating it is when the red boxes grow legs and walk away from where they are supposed to be. I found a box buried deep under a pile of leaves and sticks simply because I kicked it with my boot. Pure luck. Sometimes those courses are barely maintained.

This was a well known box that showed up on quite a few cards. Try finding this one from the other direction...

 

[HAWK22]

Exactly..... I've seen kids wailing on tree trunks with sticks in the training area out of pure frustration. A challenge is always a good thing, but some of those boxes are non-existent.

 

[HeloBubba]

Army Land Nav "checkpoints" or markers were 1 foot square concrete pads set flush with the ground. But certain courses were used so often that there were trails connecting them all. Also, when you were doing a land nav problem with a group of 100 or so folks, you'd be at your marker, shoot your bearing and see a knot of people standing the appropriate distance away. So you'd put your compass in your pocket, walk over and join them. This was in the reserves and the course was for reservists. We heard stories about the land nav course for Active Duty Infantry E-7's. Each "checkpoint" had 4 markers arrayed in a square within 10 yards of each other, so accuracy counted.

 

[usmarinemike]

At TBS, most of the points are too far apart to do any type of "box to box" navigation successfully. There was a lot of heartbreak on the courses in the early stages, but the boxes on the final land nav course were pretty accurate and pretty well marked. Only problem was that it was a pretty huge area. A lot of people found all of their boxes. The "Quantico-like terrain" was a huge help, too. I used terrain association at least as much as azimuth and pace count; which I think is a skill of greater practical importance anyway.

I would say that terrain association is more important than knowing how to use a GPS any day of the week. This is where Cheater McDoucherson fails to see the big picture. A GPS will get you there, but it won't tell you what's on the other side of that ridge.

 

[eddie]

We heard stories about the land nav course for Active Duty Infantry E-7's. Each "checkpoint" had 4 markers arrayed in a square within 10 yards of each other, so accuracy counted.

What scale maps do they use? At 1:10,000 scale 10m is only 1mm. Not exactly much room for error. Or are these mapless compass courses, and all you've got is your pace?

 

[Swanee]

At TBS, most of the points are too far apart to do any type of "box to box" navigation successfully. There was a lot of heartbreak on the courses in the early stages, but the boxes on the final land nav course were pretty accurate and pretty well marked. Only problem was that it was a pretty huge area. A lot of people found all of their boxes. The "Quantico-like terrain" was a huge help, too. I used terrain association at least as much as azimuth and pace count; which I think is a skill of greater practical importance anyway.

I would say that terrain association is more important than knowing how to use a GPS any day of the week. This is where Cheater McDoucherson fails to see the big picture. A GPS will get you there, but it won't tell you what's on the other side of that ridge.

Absolutely. Terrain association worked very well. If you knew that you just needed to walk 1k crossing a couple draws, take a left at the creek bed and your box will be on top of the finger 300m ahead you were golden. But if you had to rely on just a straight azimuth and a pace count you had a lot more trouble.

 

[HeloBubba]

What scale maps do they use? At 1:10,000 scale 10m is only 1mm. Not exactly much room for error. Or are these mapless compass courses, and all you've got is your pace?

Mapless compass course. You were shown your starting point and given a list of "Range and Bearings" (sorry, I can't shake my radar operator terminology). When we heard the story about the "hard" course, the guy telling it said you were golden if you were close to one of the markers, but hosed when your bearing and pace count dropped you right in the middle of all four of them.