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Systems Question - Resetting Circuit Breakers

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Our -10 (NATOPS) has a caution about resetting the BU PUMP PWR circuit breaker and tells you to secure all AC power prior to resetting it. Most pilots I fly with claim they've never seen that. I'm disappointed, but OK with that unless it is an MTP I'm checking out. They should know stuff like that.

I try to make a big presentation of "switching hats" from IP to MTP if I encounter something that needs to be troubleshot while conducting a training flight. If it requires an MTF maneuver in the MTP checklist, I must get re-briefed. I strongly discourage pulling CBs in flight unless you a) have no better option b) really need the system back and c) are satisfied with a situation that might be worse after pulling the CB (or wrong CB).

I'm not particularly smart or talented, but I've been flying H-60s for a long time. I'm not Yoda. I'm more like Anarkin. But, I have seen a lot. For instance, I can tell you hitting RESET on the hydraulic leak test switch in flight will give you back your pilot assist servos if the system mistakenly thought there was a leak on the #2 side. I can also tell you that in other cases, where there is a leak, doing so will bleed a LOT of hydraulic fluid out of the system possibly resulting in a #2 HYD PUMP caution light. FWIW, landing unaided boost off to a CG at night isn't fun.

So yeah, leave the Yoda type stuff to the Jedi young Anarkin.

I may be misunderstanding the intent of your post, so if that's the case, my apologies, but the "trick" I'm referring to gets around having to secure all AC power and lets you reset the BU Pump by only pulling one other breaker (the BU Pump CNTR CB). This resets the 4 second delay so you don't blow the limiters.

At the time, "Yoda" knew the system well enough by actually tracing what was in NATOPS at the time and seeing how the "trick" would work. As it turns out, not only was he right, it was recognized by NAVAIR and added to the EP as a way fix the popped breaker condition without shutting down everything (and not requiring a FCP to do the procedure). Again, we may be talking past one another because of the internet, but my intent wasn't to make "Yoda" out to be just randomly coming up with his own procedures, but instead to show that he was applying system knowledge that was also vetted and added later.

I also remember "Dave/Yoda" giving me a NATOPS check with the Mission Systems completely down in the bird. He told me to fly a SAR pattern without the computer. I argued it wasn't possible. Pretty cool to see you could fly a perfect Expanding Square pattern with nothing more than Doppler mode and an 8-day clock. One of those times my world expanded and realized how all that jazz in the left seat wasn't always necessary to make the mission happen.

By the way, is Anarkin the son of Adam Arkin? Or is he the son of Allan Arkin? I can never keep that straight.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Oof. I don't know...even on FFG life, with no mail and barely working email would probably be better than being sent home for being retar....mentally challenged about degradations.

Also, I thought TR Chip Lights just meant the CHIP IBIT test passed, no? Maybe that's just technique.
There were some intermittent TR CHIP lights for a bit and the OIC tried to hand wave them away as EMI from whatever radar happened to be convenient and told his guys to ignore that bit in NATOPS about landing as soon as possible. Then the light came back on during SAR jumps out of Bahrain when the Det was in port so the HAC complied with NATOPS and landed ASAP on the small coast guard island to the NW of Bahrain with a fuel state that was below bingo so they had to figure out how to get parts, maintainers, and gas out to the island. Once they pulled the TGB they opened it up and a nut fell out of it with gear strike marks all over it so turns out it was a real chip and the reason the light was intermittent was because the nut was too big to stick to the chip detector and so when they'd pull the detector there was nothing on it.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Lots of excuses...

Seems to me that if the nut was truly a problem, they should have been proactive and found it earlier. And if the CHIP detector was doing it's American duty, it would have been stronger and grabbed that nut. Seems like a detachment failure all around.





Kidding, of course
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Seems to me that if the nut was truly a problem, they should have been proactive and found it earlier. And if the CHIP detector was doing it's American duty, it would have been stronger and grabbed that nut. Seems like a detachment failure all around.





Kidding, of course
Yeah, the OIC wasn't helping by actively circumventing a lot of processes that Big Navy had put in place to help catch stuff like this. Hence the one way ticket home.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
WRT USAF, MTF = FCF?

(I did it! I made a legit post in all acronyms! That needs to be a forum achievement. :))
Yeah, well, I once wrote a legit MAF in all TLAs (three letter acronyms).

ECS AFU PLS FIX THX

Bazinga! :p
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
I may be misunderstanding the intent of your post, so if that's the case, my apologies, but the "trick" I'm referring to gets around having to secure all AC power and lets you reset the BU Pump by only pulling one other breaker (the BU Pump CNTR CB). This resets the 4 second delay so you don't blow the limiters.

At the time, "Yoda" knew the system well enough by actually tracing what was in NATOPS at the time and seeing how the "trick" would work. As it turns out, not only was he right, it was recognized by NAVAIR and added to the EP as a way fix the popped breaker condition without shutting down everything (and not requiring a FCP to do the procedure). Again, we may be talking past one another because of the internet, but my intent wasn't to make "Yoda" out to be just randomly coming up with his own procedures, but instead to show that he was applying system knowledge that was also vetted and added later.

I also remember "Dave/Yoda" giving me a NATOPS check with the Mission Systems completely down in the bird. He told me to fly a SAR pattern without the computer. I argued it wasn't possible. Pretty cool to see you could fly a perfect Expanding Square pattern with nothing more than Doppler mode and an 8-day clock. One of those times my world expanded and realized how all that jazz in the left seat wasn't always necessary to make the mission happen.

By the way, is Anarkin the son of Adam Arkin? Or is he the son of Allan Arkin? I can never keep that straight.
<NERD STUFF>We are talking about resetting a popped BU Pump Power CB right? Under what circumstances would you need a trick to do that? Doesn't the 4 second (3-5 in the maint manual) delay have a purpose? As far as I know, the depressurization valve only opens under one condition. (And no, it is not WOW.) It's when the K4 relay is energized due to lack of AC power from either main generator. Usually, that only occurs when you are on the ground with < 93-97% Nr. So the 'trick' only applies on the ground (or in the air with both main generators secured).

I could see how starting a 60B/R under alert conditions with external power and all systems going, the AC power is more vital. For us in the 60M, a 'Sikorsky Reboot' is common and much less inconvenient. We have little need for the 'trick', which is not in our -10, but is discussed in our MTP course. Our -10 just provides the caution about resetting the PWR CB. I am surprised the 'trick' is in NATOPS considering the isolated or rare circumstances it would be needed.
</NERD STUFF>
I guess I misspelled the name. Anakin, Schmanakin, Mannequin, Harley Quinn...whatever. In case you didn't know, Star Wars was just some movies for me, not a way of life. LOL
 
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Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
<NERD STUFF>We are talking about resetting a popped BU Pump Power CB right? Under what circumstances would you need a trick to do that? Doesn't the 4 second (3-5 in the maint manual) delay have a purpose? As far as I know, the depressurization valve only opens under one condition. (And no, it is not WOW.) It's when the K4 relay is energized due to lack of AC power from either main generator. Usually, that only occurs when you are on the ground with < 93-97% Nr. So the 'trick' only applies on the ground (or in the air with both main generators secured).

I could see how starting a 60B/R under alert conditions with external power and all systems going, the AC power is more vital. For us in the 60M, a 'Sikorsky Reboot' is common and much less inconvenient. We have little need for the 'trick', which is not in our -10, but is discussed in our MTP course. Our -10 just provides the caution about resetting the PWR CB. I am surprised the 'trick' is in NATOPS considering the isolated or rare circumstances it would be needed.
</NERD STUFF>

<MORE NERD STUFF>
I'm sure someone will come along to buff out the rough edges of what I'll try and remember on a Friday afternoon while sipping some Scotch, but here's why/when we do the trick... Thankfully, they removed all of the relay stuff out of NATOPS for us now, so I'd have to go back to an old version to be on the same page, but from what I remember, you are correct, the the relay causes (or prevents) the depressurization. However, you can bypass (or more accurately cause) the delay/depressurization by pulling the BACKUP HYD CTRL circuit breaker (and turning the BU PUMP switch off). When you push in the PWR breaker and then the CTRL breaker, when you switch the pump on it will start in a low-pressure condition without actually killing your EGIs and screens (and AFCS). This also makes it so that it doesn't immediately fire off when you're in a #2 T/R SERVO condition (which is typically how the EP unfolds on a NATOPS check/instructional event).

I used to know more about what was actually being reset when pulling and resetting the CTRL CB but those penguins have left the iceberg. Bottom line, it basically puts it back into a mode thinking it's on the ground without the AC Primary (or whatever it may be called, depending on model) being powered by a generator.
</NERD STUFF>

Hopefully that made at least 50% sense. I actually had to pull out my PCL to make sure I was telling you the correct breakers in the correct order. This should count as a NATOPS refresher.
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
<MORE NERD STUFF>
I'm sure someone will come along to buff out the rough edges of what I'll try and remember on a Friday afternoon while sipping some Scotch, but here's why/when we do the trick... Thankfully, they removed all of the relay stuff out of NATOPS for us now, so I'd have to go back to an old version to be on the same page, but from what I remember, you are correct, the the relay causes (or prevents) the depressurization. However, you can bypass (or more accurately cause) the delay/depressurization by pulling the BACKUP HYD CTRL circuit breaker (and turning the BU PUMP switch off). When you push in the PWR breaker and then the CTRL breaker, when you switch the pump on it will start in a low-pressure condition without actually killing your EGIs and screens (and AFCS). This also makes it so that it doesn't immediately fire off when you're in a #2 T/R SERVO condition (which is typically how the EP unfolds on a NATOPS check/instructional event).

I used to know more about what was actually being reset when pulling and resetting the CTRL CB but those penguins have left the iceberg. Bottom line, it basically puts it back into a mode thinking it's on the ground without the AC Primary (or whatever it may be called, depending on model) being powered by a generator.
</NERD STUFF>

Hopefully that made at least 50% sense. I actually had to pull out my PCL to make sure I was telling you the correct breakers in the correct order. This should count as a NATOPS refresher.
In the 60A/L/M the depressurization only occurs with the APU gen as the ONLY source of AC power. Any hydraulic issues under those circumstances are happening on the ground without rotors turning. With the higher electric load of a 60B/R the logic module might be different and provide depressurization with more than the APU gen online. If that's the case, your explanation makes perfect sense.
 
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