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Why are you Leaving?

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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Super Moderator
Contributor
This question will (and has in the past) cause an unholy firestorm of opinions and comments. Get the popcorn ready . . . . .
Amen, and seriously, do we really have to rehash this issue again? The FITREP is how a CO communicates to a selection board on a member's fitness for command. It's not your report card, guys. The sooner people come to terms with this concept, the sooner they'll understand the logic of how the system is designed to work. In my view, absent some kind of extenuating circumstances, giving competitive EPs to guys getting out is command malpractice.
 
To Wlawr005's question, "How would that help anybody?" I'd respond that it would "help" the completely committed, sacrifice-making person in another squadron who was legitimately the #1 LT who now has the same paper as a #3 performer for no good reason, and now there is a better chance that a #3 performer makes command over a true #1 performer. And it would *really* help the #2 person in another squadron who now has worse paper than the #3. Imagine if 4 people got out and the #5 now has the same high water as a true #1... that to me kind of makes me sick knowing what it takes to actually be a legit competitive #1.

To Brett327 I'd respond that you win and I will end it here but I don't think it's been addressed other than dismissive comments like yours. I get that its not a report card, based on a broader standard. What sucks is that to my mind it's not at all what you claim... so a CO's "message" about command worthiness changes completely overnight, based on two other people's career intentions? Malpractice to you is dishonesty and lack of integrity to me, but maybe I'm not cynical enough for the modern bureaucratic navy. These rankings are a big deal to people and are a significant factor in how much they incrementally strive.
 
I generally avoid such memes, but this one seems rather appropriate to the imminent conflagration.

View attachment 14129

On the contrary, I don't think it's that people feel victimized, whiny, or wronged like you are implying... I think its that some among us are marginalizing legitimate concerns with haughty platitudes, which just makes everyone want to double down, because of apparent arrogance, etc. on the other side. I have no skin in this game anyway - I don't think its a matter of self-absorbtion.
 

Sam I am

Average looking, not a farmer.
pilot
Contributor
Whoa. Didn't mean to start anything, but I'll comment. #3 was an outstanding performer who did some things better than I did and vice versa. Also, I completely understand the point of #1 being a career guy as that action serves the greater good. I could be wrong, but as I see it, #3 of 30ish is pretty dang good, too. Regarding the IA: one of the guys I was traveling with to UF for Grad School didn't dodge that bullet. HE did exactly what I did, dropped his letter at nine months and asked for a 4 month extension to get him to his EOS. The extension was granted and then his IA orders showed up in message traffic. His front office didn't go to bat for him and he had to push the pause button on his life for 1 yr. He chose the option of freezing his EOS clock, did the IA, came back and did his last year with the Navy so he could finish school and ease the transition to civilian life. Boy...was he pissed. Pause button for a year...ouch. But the real kicker was that he fell back to a different peer group when he got back...everyone he knew had either rotated or was out of the Navy. His attitude was understandably shitty...which led to a shitty departing FITREP too. Insult to injury...perhaps a self inflicted one, but an injury none the less.
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
Sam I am, thanks for the original post. Like you said, a useful datapoint, and/or anecdote. As an aside, what is a "car allowance" or however you termed it?
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
On the contrary, I don't think it's that people feel victimized, whiny, or wronged like you are implying... I think its that some among us are marginalizing legitimate concerns with haughty platitudes, which just makes everyone want to double down, because of apparent arrogance, etc. on the other side. I have no skin in this game anyway - I don't think its a matter of self-absorbtion.

Huh?

Anyway - the image/meme/thoughtful point to ponder was more of an instinctive reaction (or premonition) based on how these conversations usually go 'round here. If the shoe doen't fit, don't wear it.
 

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
To Wlawr005's question, "How would that help anybody?" I'd respond that it would "help" the completely committed, sacrifice-making person in another squadron who was legitimately the #1 LT who now has the same paper as a #3 performer for no good reason, and now there is a better chance that a #3 performer makes command over a true #1 performer. And it would *really* help the #2 person in another squadron who now has worse paper than the #3. Imagine if 4 people got out and the #5 now has the same high water as a true #1... that to me kind of makes me sick knowing what it takes to actually be a legit competitive #1.
Well, I feel like that kind of attitude kinda diminishes all the #1's out there (or at least half of them anyway).

So if you have a squadron full of meatheads and mouth breathers, they should just give all their EPs to the Battle E squadron down the sea wall? That would be interesting to say the least. It would definitely make recruitment out of the RAG more like the NFL draft with a lot of hurt feelings all around. Not to mention the accident rate of the squadron full of also-rans.

Summarily, I don't think what you're saying makes very much sense when you think about the big picture. You gotta be ranked against somebody...and your anecdote above emphasizes a fairly drastic example of a situation that works itself out 98% of the time.

Does anybody here ever think that sometimes we tend to over analyze simple shit?
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
So if you have a squadron full of meatheads and mouth breathers, they should just give all their EPs to the Battle E squadron down the sea wall? That would be interesting to say the least. It would definitely make recruitment out of the RAG more like the NFL draft with a lot of hurt feelings all around. Not to mention the accident rate of the squadron full of also-rans.
I think that the entering assumption is that any squadron/boat/ship wardroom is going to have a decent amount of talent spread, and the rare cases when you get an exceptionally weak (or conversely an exceptionally strong) wardroom doesn't warrant overhauling the entire system.

Boards also don't just look at one FITREP, so I think that if someone got a high ranking just because of a weak wardroom, that it would most likely manifest itself elsewhere in his performance record.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
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Super Moderator
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There's also the problem that someone who's "decided" to get out at the end of a first sea tour and thus takes the ranking hit still has several more years of obliserv and could change their mind. Say they're burned out and want to leave, but a couple years IPing at the VTs recharges them and they're born again hard. Or they drew a shitty run of front offices and got disillusioned. Or they have a significant other pressuring them to get out and the relationship ends. Whatever, there's countless reasons why a strong performer would not be willing to stay in and make that known, but then changes their mind. I've seen, and I'm sure everyone else here has too, guys frantically trying to 'get well' from a decision they made at, frankly, the worst time to have to make that decision. Half this thread is about why guys are getting burned out on sea duty.

No, the board doesn't only look at one fitrep, but it's also very clear which ones are the most important: last competitive paper in a command. Taking the ranking hit on that paper doesn't doom you, but it makes it really damn hard to stay competitive.

I still believe that if we want to try to improve the system, the ranking/EP-MP part of the fitreps should go away. It's too artificial a construct and is detrimental to honest appraisals of performance. The numerical average vs reporting senior average by itself tells a story, and I think a simple breakout of 'LT Smith is meeting/exceeding/below the standard of performance I expect for an officer of his years and experience' is sufficient.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
There's also the problem that someone who's "decided" to get out at the end of a first sea tour and thus takes the ranking hit still has several more years of obliserv and could change their mind. Say they're burned out and want to leave, but a couple years IPing at the VTs recharges them and they're born again hard. Or they drew a shitty run of front offices and got disillusioned. Or they have a significant other pressuring them to get out and the relationship ends. Whatever, there's countless reasons why a strong performer would not be willing to stay in and make that known, but then changes their mind. I've seen, and I'm sure everyone else here has too, guys frantically trying to 'get well' from a decision they made at, frankly, the worst time to have to make that decision. Half this thread is about why guys are getting burned out on sea duty.

No, the board doesn't only look at one fitrep, but it's also very clear which ones are the most important: last competitive paper in a command. Taking the ranking hit on that paper doesn't doom you, but it makes it really damn hard to stay competitive.

I still believe that if we want to try to improve the system, the ranking/EP-MP part of the fitreps should go away. It's too artificial a construct and is detrimental to honest appraisals of performance. The numerical average vs reporting senior average by itself tells a story, and I think a simple breakout of 'LT Smith is meeting/exceeding/below the standard of performance I expect for an officer of his years and experience' is sufficient.

I feel like I'm missing something here.

How do you make an intelligent "decision" with OBLISERV time remaining?
In other words, if you're way out from being eligible to drop a letter, and you're willing to commit career suicide (giving intent to Skipper that you're getting out in 3-4 years) despite counseling warning against it, that's entirely your fault. IMO, you should be ready to drop a letter very shortly to back up any talk about getting out. If you're not ready to back it up, best to just keep your mouth shut.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
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Super Moderator
Contributor
So your argument is that anyone who 'can't keep their mouth shut' is someone who should be pushed off the command track?

I'm with you part of the way. I'd tell JOs to keep any talk of getting out away from the people who rank or chop their fitrep. But I don't agree that if they do otherwise, fuck em, the navy doesn't need em. Guys get burned out, or change priorities in their life. Doesn't mean that we need to use wherever there heads were at in a few months' span of their JO tours to determine whether they're CAG material.
 

bert

Enjoying the real world
pilot
Contributor
... that to me kind of makes me sick knowing what it takes to actually be a legit competitive #1.

...

My guess is that at least 1/2 of guys earn legit #1s at least once in their first 3 tours. I understand not liking that FITREPs aren't about current performance, but people are setting themselves up for misery if they don't believe it.
 
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