O4 List

[Gatordev]

One has to ask themselves, when talking of new ideas: I get where the benefit would lie for people interested in a non-command career path, but what's in it for big Navy? Other than a marginal QOL/job satisfaction increase for a tiny percentage of its officer corps, how would something like this help the Navy accomplish its mission? I would also offer that there's already a path to something like this for guys who just want to fly - it's the SAU. I can see the Navy's answer to this kind of proposal: "Wanna stay in the cockpit, and stay out of the operational part of NAVAIR? Go reserves and join the SAU."

I wouldn't equate the SAUs with a "Flying Career Track." SAUs are manned (for the most part) by SELRES, which means they've elected to give up their benefits in the immediate future. A Flying Career Track would allow someone (be it Warrant or LT) to continue to serve actively and then get the immediate payoff at 20. Your comparison is kind of like saying, "You want to be a professional race car driver, but don't want to travel the country racing, so become a driving instructor at a school." They're not really the same thing.

Historically, you'd be right on if you replaced "SAU" with FTS/TAR, as it used to be the way you could fly continuously for 20. Now they've adjusted the system to mirror the REGNAV communities, so it's not "as" good a deal as it once was (but still a decent deal).

All that said, none of that answers your question (a good one, IMO): What's the Navy get out of this that it doesn't already have?

 

[phrogdriver]

All that said, none of that answers your question (a good one, IMO): What's the Navy get out of this that it doesn't already have?

I don't have time right now for a full discussion of this, but a quick one is: a cadre of exceptionally proficient pilots. I've said it before on another subject. The average Marine unit is better than the average Army unit, but the best Army units are better than the best Marine units. The same is true in Marine aviation, and I'd venture to say the same is true in the Navy.

TF160 is better at flying helos than an equivalent Marine unit. They get good pilots and let them train consistently. Do we need that type of environment in the Navy? Don't know, but it's something to think about.

 

[Recovering LSO]

I find it interesting that folks would be calling for an expansion of a "professional pilot" track considering how unpopular it has been within the heo / vp worlds. Granted "unpopular" is a broad generalization - but not wholly inaccurate either.

http://www.airwarriors.com/community/index.php?threads/the-warrants-have-arrived.21390/

Have yet to see any rockstar warrants. Seen some average, some below, and more than a couple with big chips on their shoulders. Those were prior aircrew, though.

 

[Brett327]

I wouldn't equate the SAUs with a "Flying Career Track." SAUs are manned (for the most part) by SELRES, which means they've elected to give up their benefits in the immediate future. A Flying Career Track would allow someone (be it Warrant or LT) to continue to serve actively and then get the immediate payoff at 20. Your comparison is kind of like saying, "You want to be a professional race car driver, but don't want to travel the country racing, so become a driving instructor at a school." They're not really the same thing.

Historically, you'd be right on if you replaced "SAU" with FTS/TAR, as it used to be the way you could fly continuously for 20. Now they've adjusted the system to mirror the REGNAV communities, so it's not "as" good a deal as it once was (but still a decent deal).

All that said, none of that answers your question (a good one, IMO): What's the Navy get out of this that it doesn't already have?

Sure, I appreciate the differences, but it's along the same lines, and for people who want to stay in the same flying job year after year with no deployments - the SAU might be for them, even though the retirement thing is a significant consideration.

I get the sense that some people would like to have their cake and eat it too. I think, to an extent, that folks who would gladly soak up tour after tour of flying without being exposed to the "less desirable" jobs (disassociated, staff work, etc) are hoping to shift that burden to people who would be command track minded.

"Hey, we just want to do all the fun stuff in the Navy, but would rather not do the less fun things." Who wouldn't want that as their Navy experience?

Having to do a bunch of non-flying jobs isn't the price of admission to the front office club. I know at some level, non-flying jobs give people a breadth of experience which will benefit them at the O5 and above level. In my view, having to occasionally do a tough non-flying job is the price of admission for continued flying.

Food for thought.

 

[Gatordev]

I don't have time right now for a full discussion of this, but a quick one is: a cadre of exceptionally proficient pilots. I've said it before on another subject. The average Marine unit is better than the average Army unit, but the best Army units are better than the best Marine units. The same is true in Marine aviation, and I'd venture to say the same is true in the Navy.

TF160 is better at flying helos than an equivalent Marine unit. They get good pilots and let them train consistently. Do we need that type of environment in the Navy? Don't know, but it's something to think about.

The dirty little secret is that I actually agree with you. The Marines get to stay longer and get better at their aviation jobs in the process. And while I think that's valuable (as someone who has been in the cockpit my whole career), I don't think the Navy cares...and for the most part, needs to care. With some exceptions, Marines (and Army) have been in the direct fight much more than most of the Navy (settle down guys, I know various communities still "do" stuff, but generally speaking...). So does the Navy really need someone who can specialize in combat Vertrep'ing while practicing inserting SEALs? Probably not. It's a nice to have, and I take pride in the fact that I've done more and different things operationally while stepping off the path than those that are "community players" and RAG legends. But big picture, I don't think the Navy cares...or more importantly, I don't think it has to right now with the recent demands put on it.

Enter a WWII ocean-based war scenario (longer than a NK/Taiwan "weekend")...yeah, totally different ball game.

Words.

All true. I guess that's why I don't have quite the sour grapes that others do. Up until now, I've been able to eat my cake...with a side of ice cream.

 

[helolumpy]

Since the final end strenght for officers is statutory limit, we are told how many officers we can have on the rolls.

So for every career pilot (LT) you make, that's one less person getting commissioned since every body counts against end-strength.

For all the great ideas about creating a core of career flyers, how many folks are you willing to not commission to have this cadre of career pilots?

If the Navy was really serious about the flying WO program then they'd put them in Hornets. Strike Fighters are the reason we have aircraft carriers, therefore they are the heart of Naval Aviation. Since flying WO's are limited to helos and MPRA, it's not the answer to the problem that many are discussing here.

The flying WO program may be the way to develop that cadre of expertise, like the Army does, but having career pilots who are JO will hurt the development of future Navy leaders vy limiting the input of new blood every year.

Or, you could get Congress to change legislation... Good luck with that.

 

[Flash]

Yep, I was one of them and in the first class......but any long-term stability as an NFO what sabatoged by the detailing system. The only reason I survived was becasue of my degree and being able to redesignate to 1320......

I was actually referring to an earlier iteration of the 'flying LDO' program, I was unaware they had resurrected it around your time in a limited fashion. There were 2-3 DHs in VQ about the time I rolled in that had been in the earlier version had existed from the at least the 80s to the early 90s, 'Bug' Roach was one for a time. One of the guys who was a former flying LDO said it died a slow death due to neglect, no one knew exactly what to do with them and most eventually transitioned to regular NFO and pilot.

 

[Flash]

"Command" an "audio-visual squadron".

Just wanted to be sure I read that right.

I wonder how you translate that to your resume?

There are several squadrons that develop CBTs/courseware/audio and video for all the various A schools/technical schools/upgrade training /flight training. May be one of those

Like MB said the USAF labels lots of individual commands as 'squadrons' including support commands like administration, maintenance, intelligence and yes, even audio-visual. Those commands are all usually under the command of the Wing at a base along with the flying squadrons, there usually isn't a seperate command structure like we usually have in the Navy where the base and flying commands are completely seperate. The command that is in charge of the flying squadrons on base is usually called a 'Group' , that is more analogous to what we think of as a wing in the Navy. A rough comparison would be CVN=Wing, CVW=Group, and Departments=Squadrons.

It took me a while to figure all this rap out and even then it isn't the same across the board with our comrades in light blue but the basic rules seem to hold pretty true, even Wikipedia agrees.

 

[robav8r]

I was actually referring to an earlier iteration of the 'flying LDO' program, I was unaware they had resurrected it around your time in a limited fashion. There were 2-3 DHs in VQ about the time I rolled in that had been in the earlier version had existed from the at least the 80s to the early 90s, 'Bug' Roach was one for a time. One of the guys who was a former flying LDO said it died a slow death due to neglect, no one knew exactly what to do with them and most eventually transitioned to regular NFO and pilot.

My old detailer, CDR Roy P. was one of the Flying LDO's I believe you are refering to and we had another at SWATS back in the 90's, CDR Cox I believe . . .

 

[navyavi469]

I can attest to the content of the original post. I had two competative EP sea tours, and somehow by not "walking the golden path" and listening to a detailer who had absolutely no insight to the board, the HSL community wound up with about a 50% promotion rate. HSC faired better, and 1310 overall was around 66%.

 

[navyavi469]

As a follow up to this thread, it doesn't seem like there is much discussion on the FY14 results that came out in JUL 13.

As predicted, the downward trend continued, with a 1310 overall at 60% select, and rotary wing probably in the gutter at less than half able to put on a gold oak leaf.

Think about that, the navy just told half of its O-3 pilots (in zone), "thanks for playing, here's the door."

What is most annoying is the fact at the senior O-3 level, the vast majority of people are quality officers. These are pilots usually with 3+ successful sea tours, typically 1500-2000 flight hours, and a myriad of quals. This is not the shedding of the fat that we tend to think about with FRS and nugget pilots: discipline problems, drunks, dorks, personality conflicts, or officers with obvious weak spots- the guys going up for O-4 have been through the ringer and come out clean, well-liked, team players with solid track records. PERS 43, in their infinite ability to ruin more lives than methamphetamine, has just told half of them to pack sand.

Meanwhile, their SWO and supply corps counterparts who can barely tie their black shoelaces, are asked to stick around and continue to sit on their ass and eat navy chow until they auto-select for O-5. But I digress, that's another rant for another thread.

If I can offer any solace, there are options on the outside. I busted my ass and now fly commercial MEDEVAC. It's a whole different world, but it's a cockpit and a big open sky for however long I want to do it. It also reminds me why I joined all those years ago, TO FLY.

 

[Pags]

As a follow up to this thread, it doesn't seem like there is much discussion on the FY14 results that came out in JUL 13.

As predicted, the downward trend continued, with a 1310 overall at 60% select, and rotary wing probably in the gutter at less than half able to put on a gold oak leaf.

Think about that, the navy just told half of its O-3 pilots (in zone), "thanks for playing, here's the door."

What is most annoying is the fact at the senior O-3 level, the vast majority of people are quality officers. These are pilots usually with 3+ successful sea tours, typically 1500-2000 flight hours, and a myriad of quals. This is not the shedding of the fat that we tend to think about with FRS and nugget pilots: discipline problems, drunks, dorks, personality conflicts, or officers with obvious weak spots- the guys going up for O-4 have been through the ringer and come out clean, well-liked, team players with solid track records. PERS 43, in their infinite ability to ruin more lives than methamphetamine, has just told half of them to pack sand.

Meanwhile, their SWO and supply corps counterparts who can barely tie their black shoelaces, are asked to stick around and continue to sit on their ass and eat navy chow until they auto-select for O-5. But I digress, that's another rant for another thread.

If I can offer any solace, there are options on the outside. I busted my ass and now fly commercial MEDEVAC. It's a whole different world, but it's a cockpit and a big open sky for however long I want to do it. It also reminds me why I joined all those years ago, TO FLY.

I've remarked about it elsewhere on the site and concur with you, but whatcha gonna do?

 

[robav8r]

PERS 43, in their infinite ability to ruin more lives than methamphetamine, has just told half of them to pack sand.

I've never heard the folks at Millington referred to this way, but after snorting a good pinot through my nose after reading this, funny nonetheless

 

[Tycho_Brohe]

but after snorting a good pinot through my nose after reading this

When I first read this, in addition to the meth reference, it sounded like you were snorting wine INTO your nose as opposed to laughing it out. That was a weird mental image.

 

[picklesuit]

When I first read this, in addition to the meth reference, it sounded like you were snorting wine INTO your nose as opposed to laughing it out. That was a weird mental image.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=bRzQBGwfMkM&list=PLh03YIj7ZDgo9DYYx4yuPLju6IBdxECCj