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Obama plans quick move on Gitmo

LazersGoPEWPEW

4500rpm
Contributor
No cliff notes. I studied this stuff in college and when not drinking, fishing, or riding my motorcycle, I use my seemingly infinite amounts of free time in A-Pool to read a lot of books on public policy. That was all from memory (and if that makes me a dork, oh well.). It's just what I am interested in. And, yes you are right. People disagree on the interpretation of the Constitution. The Supreme Court just happened to rule one particular way which makes it law.

And, as far as acting in self-interest, I agree...to a point. And, no it's not a utopian dream to think that countries are capable of placing principle and ideas ahead of narrow self-interest. That is exactly what the founders did. Unfortunately, it is not "just the way it rolls" when we sacrifice exactly what makes us unique, what makes us American. To quote the ever-wise Ben Franklin, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety and will lose both."

And about capitalism. I think capitalism is wonderful. However, I think people get way too caught up in their obsession with the almighty dollar. You are correct that the government considers the fiscal side of all policies. That should not be the driving force behind policies, though. Maybe our values as the country have gotten off track.

I am not living in some utopian fantasy. You are a realist and I am a liberal. (Not liberal as in the left side of the political spectrum, although I am that as well, but as in Realism vs Liberalism.) I am guilty of being an American idealist and a man of principle.

And, yes, you have the right to be able to live how you want. It is what makes our country what it is. I think all of us on here are willing to give our lives so people can have their own opinions, no matter what they might be. I am just giving you my (admittedly very strong) opinion.

Good man. I disagree that the founders didn't have their own interests in mind when they founded the country. Land-owners have the right to vote etc etc.

I wouldn't say you're incorrect in the statement that money shouldn't drive policy, but being responsible with the taxpayers money is paramount. We've got issues with that in this country and it needs to be fixed.

Not to sound clichee, but you took an oath to support and defend the Constitution. In my most humble opinion, you should NOT be ok with violating the document you swore to uphold because it is easier.

I did swear an oath to do just that. But as I said in my previous post people interpret the Constitution differently. It would seem that you and I disagree on how it should be interpreted. That's okay. We each are allowed our separate opinions.

As for Benjamin Franklin quotes. I don't really see how that applies to detainees.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Good man. I disagree that the founders didn't have their own interests in mind when they founded the country. Land-owners have the right to vote etc etc.
They surely did, but the main reason for the land-owners exclusion was that Jefforson et. al believed that giving a largely uneducated populace the power to vote would lead to disaster. The land-ownership requirement was a way to establish a pseudo-meritocracy, since land-owners were likely to be well educated.
 

zoomie08

Fast, Neat, Average...
They surely did, but the main reason for the land-owners exclusion was that Jefforson et. al believed that giving a largely uneducated populace the power to vote would lead to disaster. The land-ownership requirement was a way to establish a pseudo-meritocracy, since land-owners were likely to be well educated.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

Lasers,

The Franklin quote was about being willing to give up our principles in order to get some security. Its how every democracy in history has capitulated. They move from democracies to security states which usurp the people's "essential liberty" al in the name of security.
 

LazersGoPEWPEW

4500rpm
Contributor
They surely did, but the main reason for the land-owners exclusion was that Jefforson et. al believed that giving a largely uneducated populace the power to vote would lead to disaster. The land-ownership requirement was a way to establish a pseudo-meritocracy, since land-owners were likely to be well educated.

Completely agree.
 

BlackBearHockey

go blue...
That is exactly what the founders did.

The founding fathers were in a slightly different time under slightly different situations. I'm a rather conservative person who likes to adopt the essence of what this country was founded on... but... at the same time understand we all have to put on our grown up pants and realize that the America today is staggeringly different than the America of yesteryear. You're a step ahead of most liberals in that you recognize the constitution is important... but... if you fail to see that it needs to be molded to fit the situation that we live in you should be lumped in the same boat as the rest. If you can't see that the essence of the constitution needs to remain fixed but how to apply it needs some sort of fluidity... then yes... you are living in utopia. There is no need for us to cut off our nose to spite our face.

Are you suggesting we get rid of electricity too because that's what the forefathers did?
 

LazersGoPEWPEW

4500rpm
Contributor
Couldn't have said it better myself.

LaZers,

The Franklin quote was about being willing to give up our principles in order to get some security. Its how every democracy in history has capitulated. They move from democracies to security states which usurp the people's "essential liberty" al in the name of security.

Yea I understand that. I don't feel like this nation is closing in on that quite yet.
 

HercDriver

Idiots w/boats = job security
pilot
Super Moderator
The number of detainees at GITMO has been decreasing since we first started holding them there. As Chunks pointed out, some have been released and some have gone back to the battlefield. I'll grant you that the administration wrote the original rules to aid the US "cause", but that has changed dramatically in the years since. The more recent cases are evidence of that.
How many cases have gone to trial in 7 years? Two, I think.

How many military lawyers defending and prosecuting these cases have asked to be removed vice enabling the kangaroo court "Military Tribunals"?
Lazers...etc. said:
I wouldn't say you're incorrect in the statement that money shouldn't drive policy, but being responsible with the taxpayers money is paramount. We've got issues with that in this country and it needs to be fixed.
Am I misinterpreting the tenor of your previous posts in that the fiscal bottom line drives your attitudes on policy vice the much more difficult "morals"?
 

zoomie08

Fast, Neat, Average...
The founding fathers were in a slightly different time under slightly different situations. I'm a rather conservative person who likes to adopt the essence of what this country was founded on... but... at the same time understand we all have to put on our grown up pants and realize that the America today is staggeringly different than the America of yesteryear. You're a step ahead of most liberals in that you recognize the constitution is important... but... if you fail to see that it needs to be molded to fit the situation that we live in you should be lumped in the same boat as the rest. If you can't see that the essence of the constitution needs to remain fixed but how to apply it needs some sort of fluidity... then yes... you are living in utopia. There is no need for us to cut off our nose to spite our face.

Are you suggesting we get rid of electricity too because that's what the forefathers did?

No dude. The electricity thing was pretty absurd because it was a huge illogical jump in rationale. I believe the Constitution should be interpreted as written by the founders and interpreted by the Supreme Court. The way your "fluidity" is applied is through the Court and the rare amending process. For the situation we are talking about, it has been "molded to fit the situation" through numerous court cases and it was decided that these evil guys should get the protection of habeas corpus rights.

Don't confuse idealism with being naive.

Conversations like this is what makes America work. I love it.
 

zoomie08

Fast, Neat, Average...
Hey Herc,

This is completely off subject but...

I am undecided as to what I want to fly and when discussing helos with my buddy I heard soemthing that intrigued me. He said that if you fly helos for the Navy that when your initial commitment is up you can transfer straight into the Coast Guard and fly helos for them. That sounds great to me. I would love to continue flying, live in one spot without deploying, and live in some of the sweet USCG locations. Not saying I want to do this for sure, but is there any truth to it?

(I realize you fly hercs but you are a CG dude so I thought you might know.)
 

ImfromJersey

New Member
what about pirates? they are virtually the same as terrorists and it's only a matter of time until the decide to hop on a US flagged ship and hold it for ransom. when it does happen, which it eventually will, how will we treat these guys? you would think gitmo would be the perfect kind of place to send these misfit criminals, but if it closes, we would run into the same problems we have now with deciding what to do with the current gitmo prisoners. you would think this might be taken into consideration when looking to close the prison, but no one's said anything about it. anyone have any thoughts?
 

HercDriver

Idiots w/boats = job security
pilot
Super Moderator
Hey Herc,

This is completely off subject but...

I am undecided as to what I want to fly and when discussing helos with my buddy I heard soemthing that intrigued me. He said that if you fly helos for the Navy that when your initial commitment is up you can transfer straight into the Coast Guard and fly helos for them. That sounds great to me. I would love to continue flying, live in one spot without deploying, and live in some of the sweet USCG locations. Not saying I want to do this for sure, but is there any truth to it?

(I realize you fly hercs but you are a CG dude so I thought you might know.)
Shoot me a pm.
 
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