Read this. It's the Marine Corps order on hazing, then ask your question. It will make more sense after that I think.
OT, but just wanted to say that's the first order/instruction/message I have ever read that was written that well.
Read this. It's the Marine Corps order on hazing, then ask your question. It will make more sense after that I think.
Missing the point. The point isn't that their fears of being discovered were unfounded. The point is that their fear of retaliation for having different religious beliefs (or a lack thereof) were unfounded - in fact, this very point is a matter of DoD policy and Federal law and was reiterated to them at least once every year during EEO/CMEO GMT and was included on every contract they signed.Yes Sir, I completely agree. I don't think much of these individuals "perceived pressure," just that I know some might feel it. My point was that their pressure was wrongly perceived, because the only ones that would be looking around and noticing who did not participate, were those who were also not participating. If that makes any sense at all.
1) Non-denominational prayers, as I stated earlier, always end up being non-denominationally (judeo-)christian. While this might please the majority of servicemembers, it excludes a significant portion.... I just don't understand the harm in a non-denominational prayer...
sticks and stones... I will never be ashamed of choosing to think, and live by a rational philosophy. It's as normal for atheists to be offended by faith-based thought as it is for faith-based thinkers to be offended by other faiths or atheists.If the name "God" causes you physical pain, perhaps you should chill the hell out, Damien, put some foamies in your earholes, and get back to trying to take over the world.
Agreed. The Chaplain Corps is an invaluable component of the military. The counselling and church service they provide improve morale, thereby helping the overall mission. These benefits are gained without the need of command-sponsored prayer....the support of religion, especially in regards to the support of a Chaplain Corps, is very important to the morale of the troops and their combat effectiveness...
Stop thinking about yourself. Start thinking about the people you lead, and their needs. First, there is no disciplinary action if you do or do not participate in a prayer. Presence does not equal participation. You have to be present, you don't have to participate. If 99.9% of the people you're around want to/need to/are willing to participate, then it should probably be in place to fulfill their needs. However, that doesn't mean that you need to or have to participate. Show me ONE CASE of an NJP involving someone refusing to pray. ONE. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find it. I'd be willing to bet that no such case exists.I'm not a USNA grad, so I'm not familiar with the tradition. However, if a mid is required to be at the noon meal, and there is a command-sponsored prayer at the meal, then the mid is thereby forced (by threat of disciplinary action) to participate in the prayer. Even though he/she may not have to bow or speak the prayer, it sends the "Team j.c." message that the command is religious.
I would hardly call the type of basic behavior that's lead to the Inquisition, the Crusades, and Radical Islamic Jihad as "normal". The ACLU's behavior is exactly the same thing, just with lawyers instead of knights. At the end of the day, its all about bending everyone else to your will in the name of God/Allah/nothing.sticks and stones... I will never be ashamed of choosing to think, and live by a rational philosophy. It's as much of a manifestation of insecure paranoia for atheists to be offended by faith-based thought as it is for faith-based thinkers to be offended by other faiths or atheists.
Stop thinking about yourself. Start thinking about the people you lead, and their needs. First, there is no disciplinary action if you do or do not participate in a prayer. Presence does not equal participation. You have to be present, you don't have to participate. If 99.9% of the people you're around want to/need to/are willing to participate, then it should probably be in place to fulfill their needs. However, that doesn't mean that you need to or have to participate. Show me ONE CASE of an NJP involving someone refusing to pray. ONE. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find it. I'd be willing to bet that no such case exists.
Chaplains are more than willing, through lay-readers to address every possible religious need. For those that don't have a religious need, they are willing to offer all forms of counseling (they all have to go through generic counseling classes). I don't see the issue. Yes, you may not agree - but look at 90% of the military (and probably 90% of the men/women you lead). Again, stop thinking of yourself.
And if you think there's disciplinary action involved, you are sorely mistaken.
Like I said before, this issue doesn't really bug me. HOWEVER people keep making the point "what's the big deal with the non-denominational prayer?"
The answer is: NOTHING.
MY point before was that in my experience, the chaplain WAS denominational and threw a "Jesus" into the prayer. Now, for me, a non-religious guy, that wasn't really a big deal to me. However, I can see a more observant Jewish sailor or other sailor of another religion really getting offended by that.
So how do we go about ensuring that the chaplains don't go making prayers christian? (for those that really care).
It is difficult, and I have met some chaplains that are good at separating the two, and I have met chaplains that are bad at it. Most of the chaplains that I have met however, are more concerned with providing what their soldiers/sailors/airman/Marines need. My last chaplain was a Baptist. He coordinated with some of the locals during our exercises and got the Muslim Marines involved in prayer service with fellow Muslims. He didn't judge them, he just knew it had to happen. Most chaplains care about you, your religious/non-religious needs, whether you like to admit it or not.It must be difficult for a chaplain, regardless of his faith background, to balance the spiritual needs of the command he's serving while preserving the integrity of his own worship practices.
Fixed.Stop thinking about yourself. Start thinking about the christian people you lead, and their needs.
I would bet there would be disciplinary action, if one refused to come to lunch until after the prayer, or walked out during the prayer.First, there is no disciplinary action if you do or do not participate in a prayer.
I think you're probably right on that point, my mistake. My issue with this practice is that it is command-sponsored and thereby effectively command-endorsed. The command prayer can never be fully inclusive. What about the buddhists, etc.? They don't want to hear about Jesus or even God over the 1MC. And just because a chaplain excludes the word "jesus", it doesn't make the prayer non-christian or all-inclusive.Presence does not equal participation.
1) Check your numbers.99.9% of the people you're around want to/need to/are willing to participate
Fixed.True freedom of religion is being allowed to practice or not however you choose, recognizing how unique the opportunity to do so is, and returning the favor to society by allowing your fellow man the courtesy to practice or not however he sees fit.
^^ What he said.words
I'd be interested to hear if scoob, phrog, Bogey, and everyone else would be perfectly ok if the USNA Chaplain was a Muslim and conducted mealtime prayers praying to Allah, and saying "Allah akbar" during the prayer... We're not talking just one time... but every meal. Would you feel comfortable? What about a Wiccan leading prayers praying to Mother Earth and different Gods/Goddesses? Would this be ok?
I'm just asking because it seems that the majority always thinks the minority should just let things slide and go with the flow.
I'm not trying to be confrontational (beleive me, I know maybe it comes out that way in my writing... but I'm just not that great penning feelings to paper). I am curious though.
If I was doing an exchange tour in an Arabic country (Ya, I know...) and they had prayers for the Muslim majority, I wouldn't mind. I'd stfu and go with the flow.
Your point is moot because the MAJORITY is christian. There would never be a scenario where a Muslim Chaplain would be leading a Muslim prayer to a bunch of christians. MAJORITY RULES.
When I've seen/brought a non-Jew to Synagogue, they don't stand up and declare shenanigans on the Rabbi. They STFU and go with the flow.
So....... Galileo, et al. should have STFU, because the Earth really is flat and at the center of the universe.MAJORITY RULES.
So....... Galileo, et al. should have STFU, because the Earth really is flat and at the center of the universe.
Damnit, I've been trying to avoid being a smartass in this thread, but you went and posted that bit of genius.