All things MV-22 Osprey

[Pepe]

When they convert a squadron over to the -22, how does that work? Do they basically bring the RAG to the squadron?

 

[phrogdriver]

No, the mountain doesn't go to Mohammed. It's easier for Mohammed to go to the mountain.

However, the Left Coast guys knock out much of their academics and simulators before going East to minimize TAD.

 

[MAKE VAPES]

It will be interesting to see the 22 doing HADR soon...

 

[phrogdriver]

It will be interesting to see the 22 doing HADR soon...

HA is one of the very vanilla assault support missions. You take Marines and stuff from Pt.A to Pt.B.

Haiti's so small the speed difference won't make that big of a dent, but if they use it as a intra-theatre connector between austere zones in Haiti, the airport, the LHA, LHD, the CVN, and maybe even a staging area in south FL, it has the potential to make a much bigger contribution. I don't know if they're actually doing that or need that to be done, but I think that would be where they'd get some value-added out of it. You've got the COD to go from the airports to the carrier, but nothing that can hit all those areas without stopping and re-embarking the cargo.

Although I'm jealous that another ACE is picking up the mission right after mine went decomposite, it will be another item on the aircraft's CV. That will help silence the skeptics out there who say the Corps is hiding the aircraft.

 

[Jim123]

Mind if I add a bit and rephrase/paraphrase?

Haiti's so small the speed difference won't make that big of a dent, but if they use it as a intra-theatre connector between austere zones in Haiti, the airport, the LHA, LHD,

the hospital ship, LSDs, small boys, and all of the other ships if/as required.

and maybe even a staging area in south FL,

Something none of the other platforms can do. While I doubt the added utility over fixed wing or helicopter will make the difference in lives saved in this particular operation, the capability to go between CONUS and virtually anywhere in the AO, direct, and bypass the primary air hub/Port-au-Prince airport... that is significant. (Hi-pri cargo or VIP transfer?) Meantime the birds are still useful for day-to-day logistics sorties.

it has the potential to make a much bigger contribution. I don't know if they're actually doing that or need that to be done, but I think that would be where they'd get some value-added out of it. You've got the COD to go from the airports to the carrier, but nothing that can hit all those areas without stopping and re-embarking the cargo.

I completely agree. The Osprey's time to shine! Just watch out with the downwash

 

[phrogdriver]

With someone on the inside feeding me intel, that's one of the very real concerns of the planners...

And before phrogdriver weighs in and says "no worse than the 53", I can call bullshit now. I've been on the ground, under both... Osprey is worse. Let's see, rotor loading, aerodynamics, etc... Makes sense...

It is the same as the 53--it has to be. Holding 40,000lbs and change up in the air takes the same number of lifties no matter how you do it. You're just doing it with two 38' wide proprotors instead of one 83' (?) rotor.

Now, just like taking your whiskey straight instead of with water on the rocks, concentrating it in a smaller space is going to hit you harder. I won't argue that. They will have to make sure it doesn't blow the tin right off some shanty roof.

 

[mmx1]

No, it doesn't have to be. I agree that the forces involved are the same, however - you end up taking the same amount of veritcal forces and distributing it along less surface area. Even if your measurements are correct, you are looking at the same forces distributed along 238.64 square feet, versus 260.62 square feet.

The difference is more significant; the Osprey has roughly half the disc area of a CH-53.

 

[Birdog8585]

No, it doesn't have to be. I agree that the forces involved are the same, however - you end up taking the same amount of veritcal forces and distributing it along less surface area. Even if your measurements are correct, you are looking at the same forces distributed along 238.64 square feet, versus 260.62 square feet.

I hate the fact the Osprey is replacing the Phrog for a very personal reason (I want to keep flying throughout my reserve career, and the Osprey is going to force us to move, leading to me not being able to drill here any more), but I can also see its limitations. EVERY Osprey guy is incapable of seeing its limitations. EVERY Osprey guy. I actually heard an Osprey guy (who, oh - by the way, had less hours, less combat hours, and less goggle hours than I did) tell me that the Osprey has "No limitations."

Agreed but not whole-hearted; not EVERY Osprey guy. I drink the Kool-Aid but I ensure that my backwash is left in the bottom of the cup. :icon_wink

That attitude will kill people. I don't give a fuck how good your aircraft is.

I learned the hard way, early-on, that by thinking you - or your aircraft - is invincible/unlimited, the HV diagram all-of-the-sudden immediately makes sense.

 

[PropAddict]

CH-53E: 79 foot rotor diameter>>>>4902 ft^2 rotor area
73.5 K Max T/O>>>15.0 lbs/ft^2

Osprey: 38 foot rotor diameter>1134 ft^2 per rotor>>>>2268 ft^2 total rotor area
60.5K max T/O>>>26.7 lbs/ft^2

Factor in that the 53's rotor is 27 feet off the deck, while the Osprey's is 22, and it just makes it even more lop-sided.

(The numbers are from Wikipedia, so may be a bit off, but the conclusion should still be valid.)

 

[phrogdriver]

No, it doesn't have to be. I agree that the forces involved are the same, however - you end up taking the same amount of veritcal forces and distributing it along less surface area. Even if your measurements are correct, you are looking at the same forces distributed along 238.64 square feet, versus 260.62 square feet.

I hate the fact the Osprey is replacing the Phrog for a very personal reason (I want to keep flying throughout my reserve career, and the Osprey is going to force us to move, leading to me not being able to drill here any more), but I can also see its limitations. EVERY Osprey guy is incapable of seeing its limitations. EVERY Osprey guy. I actually heard an Osprey guy (who, oh - by the way, had less hours, less combat hours, and less goggle hours than I did) tell me that the Osprey has "No limitations."

That attitude will kill people. I don't give a fuck how good your aircraft is.

Jesus, Clarence, lighten up.

I did acknowledge the rotorwash hits you harder, after all. It's not the hammer of the gods, though.

The Osprey is by no means a miracle aircraft. At the same time, some of the phrog phanatics are completely f-ing unhinged.

I've got about 1000 hours in each. I do know where the future lies, and which one brings more to the table.

The 46 had to go away, V-22 or no V-22. It is a mediocre performer even among medium-lift helicopters. Even in the FRS, IPs would sell it with phrases like, "It's the most manueverable helicopter in the world!" When I got to the fleet and learned how to read an E-M diagram, I could see that it's not even the most manueverable helo among really old helos.

The V-22 is a decent, but unexceptional, helo and a decent but unexceptional turboprop. It has significant shortcomings when viewed in isolation against either. It's the fact that it brings those two together that makes it capable.

Osprey types are somewhat insular and defensive for a reason. Every half-wit who's watched 60 Minutes thinks he's a freakin' aerospace engineer and tries to call it a POS. 46 guys who've barely seen one would have rabid opinions based on 4th-hand information. There's a certain mindset that does develop when every PEL hits the national press that's only now starting to abate.

 

[Birdog8585]

It will be interesting to see the 22 doing HADR soon...

"Tilt-Rotors to the Rescue"

 

[CumminsPilot]

"Tilt-Rotors to the Rescue"

"The Ospreys have a troubled history, including the deaths of 30 Marines and civilians in test flights, but they have been performing with only minor mechanical incidents in Iraq and Afghanistan."

sigh...

 

[Pepe]

I hate the fact the Osprey is replacing the Phrog for a very personal reason

EVERY Osprey guy is incapable of seeing its limitations. EVERY Osprey guy.

Unlike most Phrog guys, you'll find that I'm open minded...

I Disagree.

I actually heard an Osprey guy tell me that the Osprey has "No limitations."

Talk smack, and show us your plane, but don't be a dick about it!

Sounds to me like all he was doing is talking shit, and your fuse was already shorter than most.

 

[Pepe]

Here's the most important question of this entire thread, which is more fun to fly? CH-46 or the MV-22?

 

[HeloBubba]

Here's the most important question of this entire thread, which is more fun to fly? CH-46 or the MV-22?

Anyone with an open mind who has flown both care to chime in?