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COMAIR Mid-Air..."Hit? By what?"

Schnugg

It's gettin' a bit dramatic 'round here...
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Amazing that either of the aircraft made it. I'm curious if the pilots saw the other aircraft prior to the mid-air?

Certainly an interesting tale from the perspective of the passenger.



Article and a video can be found at: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/business/03road.html?em&ex=1160107200&en=cb7a38933ec40a15&ei=5087

SÃO JOSE DOS CAMPOS, Brazil, Oct. 1 — It had been an uneventful, comfortable flight
With the window shade drawn, I was relaxing in my leather seat aboard a $25 million corporate jet that was flying 37,000 feet above the vast Amazon rainforest. The 7 of us on board the 13-passenger jet were keeping to ourselves.
Without warning, I felt a terrific jolt and heard a loud bang, followed by an eerie silence, save for the hum of the engines.
And then the three words I will never forget. “We’ve been hit,” said Henry Yandle, a fellow passenger standing in the aisle near the cockpit of the Embraer Legacy 600 jet.
“Hit? By what?” I wondered. I lifted the shade. The sky was clear; the sun low in the sky. The rainforest went on forever. But there, at the end of the wing, was a jagged ridge, perhaps a foot high, where the five-foot-tall winglet was supposed to be.
And so began the most harrowing 30 minutes of my life. I would be told time and again in the next few days that nobody ever survives a midair collision. I was lucky to be alive — and only later would I learn that the 155 people aboard the Boeing 737 on a domestic flight that seems to have clipped us were not.
Investigators are still trying to sort out what happened, and how — our smaller jet managed to stay aloft while a 737 that is longer, wider and more than three times as heavy, fell from the sky nose first.
But at 3:59 last Friday afternoon, all I could see, all I knew, was that part of the wing was gone. And it was clear that the situation was worsening in a hurry. The leading edge of the wing was losing rivets, and starting to peel back.
Amazingly, no one panicked. The pilots calmly starting scanning their controls and maps for signs of a nearby airport, or, out their window, a place to come down.
But as the minutes passed, the plane kept losing speed. By now we all knew how bad this was. I wondered how badly ditching — an optimistic term for crashing — was going to hurt.
I thought of my family. There was no point reaching for my cellphone to try a call — there was no signal. And as our hopes sank with the sun, some of us jotted notes to spouses and loved ones and placed them in our wallets, hoping the notes would later be found.
I was focused on a different set of notes when the flight began. I’ve contributed the “On the Road”column for The New York Times business-travel section every week for the last seven years. But I was on the Embraer 600 for a freelance assignment for Business Jet Traveler magazine.
My fellow passengers included executives from Embraer and a charter company called ExcelAire, the new owner of the jet. David Rimmer, the senior vice president of Excel Aire, had invited me to ride home on the jet his company had just taken possession of at Embraer’s headquarters here.
And it had been a nice ride. Minutes before we were hit, I had wandered up to the cockpit to chat with the pilots, who said the plane was flying beautifully. I saw the readout that showed our altitude: 37,000 feet.
I returned to my seat. Minutes later came the strike (it sheared off part of the plane’s tail, too, we later learned).
Immediately afterward, there wasn’t much conversation.
Mr. Rimmer, a large man, was hunched in the aisle in front of me staring out the window at the newly damaged wing.
“How bad is it?” I asked.
He fixed me with a steady look and said, "I don’t know."
I saw the body language of the two pilots. They were like infantrymen working together in a jam, just as they had been trained to do.
For the next 25 minutes, the pilots, Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino, were scanning their instruments, looking for an airport. Nothing turned up.
They sent out a Mayday signal, which was acknowledged by a cargo plane somewhere in the region. There had been no contact with any other plane, and certainly not with a 737 in the same airspace.
Mr. Lepore then spotted a runway through the darkening canopy of trees.
“I can see an airport,” he said.
They tried to contact the control tower at what turned out to be a military base hidden deep in the Amazon. They steered the plane through a big wide sweep to avoid putting too much stress on the wing.
As they approached the runway, they had the first contact with air traffic control.
“We didn’t know how much runway we had or what was on it,” Mr. Paladino would say later that night at the base in the jungle at Cachimbo.
We came down hard and fast. I watched the pilots wrestle the aircraft because so many of their automatic controls were blown. They brought us to a halt with plenty of runway left. We staggered to the exit.
“Nice flying,” I told the pilots as I passed them. Actually, I inserted an unprintable word between “nice” and “flying.”
“Any time,” Mr. Paladino, said with an anxious smile.
 

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Penguin

Respect the WEZ
pilot
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217699,00.html
There is currently a news report stating the two pilots have had their passports confiscated in Brazil for possibly causing the crash. According to the Brazilian civil aviation authority, the Legacy was cleared to 36,000 feet and ignored or missed an ATC call to descend from 37,000 back to assigned altitude. The report also mentioned the IFR cruising rules, stating they were headed NW, and should never have been at 37,00 to begin with. Finally, there was a discussion regarding why TCAS didn't give any warning. This is certainly looking bad for the two surviving pilots at this time. As a helo bubba who rarely flies at even 1/10th that altitude, I must confess I'm a bit rusty on Class A operations. Aren't there reasons why ATC may have assigned them an odd altitude, regardless of the cruising rules?
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
.....Aren't there reasons why ATC may have assigned them an odd altitude, regardless of the cruising rules?
Sure:
Class A: All operations must be conducted under Instument Flight Rules (IFR) or Special Visual Flight Rules (SVFR) and are subject to ATC clearance. All flights are separated from each other by ATC.

Of course, I don't know ANY particulars regarding this accident --- but
some things just never change .... it's always easier for Brazilian ATC to take the heat off themselves by blaming the pilots ... for their lack of better lookout doctrine (?) or for something/anything else (?) ....

And flying in South America (although "better" these days -- than when I first did it -- HF/ADF) is always and has always been problematical.
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
They're looking to charge the American pilots with manslaughter. Anyone ever heard of that before?
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
They're looking to charge the American pilots with manslaughter. Anyone ever heard of that before?
It's quite common in overseas civil aviation --- i.e., charging the pilots with various and sundry CRIMINAL offenses in crashes/losses of life. And you frequently go to jail from the get-go until proven "innocent".

It shouldn't be too long before the "legal" community here in the good 'ol USA gets on that bandwagon --- its already been tried in some civil court jurisdictions.
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
Even if they were a 1ooo feet of altitude...Isn't there generally more than a 1000 feet of separation on aircraft that large operating up there? Even our course rules down here ususally seperate by more than that, and that is much closer to an airport. These folks seemed to be on an airway of sorts in a cruise regime.

I admit, I don't have experience here but someone who does...would that be typical?
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
It's quite common in overseas civil aviation --- i.e., charging the pilots with various and sundry CRIMINAL offenses in crashes/losses of life. And you frequently go to jail from the get-go until proven "innocent".

It shouldn't be too long before the "legal" community here in the good 'ol USA gets on that bandwagon --- its already been tried in some civil court jurisdictions.

Reference the Ukrainian pilot who drove his jet into that airshow crowd some months back.

Brett
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
firefriendly said:
Seperation above FL290 is 2000' and the 737 should have at least been assigned FL380 if the Embraer was FL360...it sounds like fault can be blamed on several people, and the US pilots should not be charged with manslaughter, IMO.

I'm assuming RVSM is not in effect in S. America.

Brett
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
Despite Brazil's efforts to the contrary, it definitely seems like a mult-point failure. Lots of places the chain could have been broken....
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Reference the Ukrainian pilot who drove his jet into that airshow crowd some months back.

Brett

Was he Ukrainian or Russian? It was a Flanker he was driving if I remember right... killed a bunch of people. They put him in jail because they felt it was his fault (and probably to save face).
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
There's some coufusion and misinformation herein ....

RVSM (Reduced Vertical Separation Minimum) is a bureacratic methodology of putting more aviation metal closer together in the same airspace as before ... thus RVSM. And of course, at some point in time --- more accidents will occur as a direct result. :)

To wit:
Prior to RVSM ... between FL290 and FL410, the "old" separation was ... 2000' vertically.

Since RVSM (and yes, South America has it) ... between FL290 and FL410, the "new, improved" separation is 1000' vertically ....

Bottom line: the "controllers" don't "control" anything ... no matter how they pat themselves on the back .... they just advise and consent.

YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN ASS ... EVEN @ FL 410 !!!



JAL 747 @ 1000' vertical separation over NORPAC route goin' to Tokio (or Tokyo, if you prefer) ... it REALLY looks BIG in "real" life .... :)
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
firefriendly said:
...Can our government fight for the pilots in this case?
I've learned over the years .... that when you leave the military ... the US government basically "leaves" you .... i.e., when in the military --- NONE of our guys ever spent a night in a "local" jail or went to court. We'd kick the door in and spring 'em. Sometimes ... literally. UNCLE was ALWAYS there to bail you out ..... that's the way it worked then. I don't know about "now" in the military ....

But in "civie street" ... whether in the airlines or in corporate civil flying ... you're on your own. The only "help" you might be able to garner would come from your employer, if they are especially well connected. And "well connected" overseas ALWAYS comes with a "financial" component .... :)
 

gregsivers

damn homeowners' associations
pilot
And "well connected" overseas ALWAYS comes with a "financial" component .... :)

I've heard that Delta aircraft that fly to Moscow carry cash in a lockbox in the cockpit to pay the ground crews in Moscow. Otherwise they can't count on them being there. Just heresay, if I'm mistaken oops.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
I've heard that Delta aircraft that fly to Moscow carry cash in a lockbox in the cockpit to pay the ground crews in Moscow. Otherwise they can't count on them being there. Just heresay, if I'm mistaken oops.
Yeah ... don't know about Delta in Ma Russia ... I wouldn't doubt it. EVERYTHING gets "greased" over there.

Braniff (one of my formers) used to do the same in South America.

In addition ... Braniff solamente hired rich, connected, and pretty SA girls for the "southern" flying ... a.k.a. daughters of senior military officers ... politicos .... businessmen ... you get the picture. When the girls would come back through the local Customs check-points on the return from the big PX in the NorteAmericano-sky .... with their luggage carts OVERFLOWING with in-the-box electronics and other assorted comsumer goods clearly visible ... the "local" customs officials would query:

"Que??"

The girls would respond with a smile and dice "Nada" ....

And through customs they would go ... treasure in hand for all the world to see.

What a civilized part of the world .... :)

When Eastern Airlines gobbled up Braniff's SA routes --- Eastern's F/A's INSISTED on flying the plum SA routes --- and the airline foolishly fired all of the former Braniff SA girls ..... and guess what happened???

Eastern frequently had problems getting fuel, food, service, maintenance, and let's not even get started with clearing SA Customs .... :) ugly .... some people just never learn.
 
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