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What’s the FMS/AP/AT/automation culture at your airline?

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
So had some interesting and spirited conversation with @mad dog this holiday weekend on the culture of automation at various airlines.

After watching the AA “Children Of The Magenta Line” video I was under the impression that the 121 world was embracing a gradual culture shift to allowing/encouraging hand flying when appropriate or at least using lower levels of AP like HDG and VS modes when things got hairy.

But it seems at Delta the culture is to “fix the computer” at all costs, even going heads down typing in a busy terminal environment - and hand flying is verboten.

So I’d like to hear about the culture at your airline around FMS, AP/AT and what your ops manual and training says and what’s considered good manners or accepted behavior. (Delta example, hand flying makes the other pilot “work” more cross checking therefore bad manners).

It’s an interesting topic. Please share your thoughts as experiences.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Should probably point out that Children of the Magenta Line is over 20 years old. It was part of a series that Warren Van Der Burgh taught, including some advanced maneuvering. A lot of the stick-and-rudder over automation stuff fell out of favor after AA587 broke up (over Queens in November 2001). Some of the techniques, especially rudder use, were probably a bit much in hindsight but a lot of that swing of opinion was a case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Anyway, the things have swung back to the middle in the last five years or so. Best example of that I can think of is the FAA and industry collaboration on Extended Envelope Training (EET- advisory circular link ).


There are a lot of semi-informed opinions out there in this debate. Lots of technical debates have their share of both really smart and really ill-informed participants, but when you get into this discussion of automation vs old fashioned hand flying, the conversation seems to fill up with a lot of sweeping generalizations from extreme, singular events like AF447 or Sully and the Hudson.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
If it is working, automation is safer and more comfortable for the pax. It is also more efficient as far a fuel, engines, etc. Most airlines encourage the use of automation. That being said, U.S. airlines have always expected their pilots to be proficient in hand flying without automation and encourage pilots to hand fly when needed to maintain this proficiency. It’s basically an individual decision as to how much each pilot feels they need to shut off automation and hand fly.

I’ve never seen a Captain tell a FO he can’t hand fly and I’ve never seen a Captain tell a FO he has to hand fly.

I also have a couple of Delta pilot friends. I’ve never heard that Delta discourages hand flying and they say they never seen it discouraged.

Also keep in mind that Children if the Magenta Line is over 20 years old. While a good video, Im not sure how much it reflects current times.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
Automation is encouraged until it becomes a detriment. If I can’t make the machine do what I want because of user error, I’ll kick it down to a lower level of automation. If that still doesn’t get me back ahead of the plane, everything gets turned off and I fly the damn plane and use the other guy to build the automation back up and get ahead of the aircraft.

This isn’t a unique technique; it’s literally how we are taught to manage automation in training. VNAV can sometimes do funny things, and unless I’m flying a star straight into an approach, I’m almost always using LVL change and heading select in the terminal area when we are getting vectors.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
VNAV can sometimes do funny things,
Boeing VNAV works great if you know all the nuances. Things like change your speed in the FMS and not on the panel. The times I’ve jumpseated in a SWA cockpit and watched them fuck up VNAV are numerous. The now gone prohibition of using speed brakes with any flaps out made fucked up SWA VNAV learning/use for a long time too. It all goes back to SWA refusing to use VNAV for 20 years after everybody else did.

Boeing VNAV is much better than Airbus VNAV.
 

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
Fly the fucking airplane... The end... Automation is a tool. Use it as such.. When it doesn’t work the way you want, change modes and when that doesn’t work then hand fly.

Also, I have found that people that suck at managing automation, suck at hand flying too!

And the folks that want to hand fly all the time to practice and get better, never actually get better. All this hand flying/automation policy is designed around a few people that don’t know or recognize when and not when the airplane is acting accordingly. So the airline changes policy and guess what nothing changes. They still suck.
 
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