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Time in Regionals?

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
I am a Navy Helo driver about a year out from separation and I'm weighing my options, with the airlines and CBP as the frontrunners for me. One of my main questions about regionals I can't seem to find an answer to on any forums: how long are Helo guys who do an RTP with a regional nowdays taking to get on with a major? Can anyone speak to this from experience?

I've heard people saying they guess only a year or 2, but this seems overly optimistic to me since you'll barely be a captain getting part 121 PIC time by then. Any thoughts?

Thanks!
 

HokiePilot

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
The question you are asking doesn't really have an answer. You get to a major by having the best resume in their application pilot. Flight time is a part, but not all.

For a straight helo bubba, I think 2 years is a little ambitious to get to a legacy. You may be able to get on with a ULCC or LCC in that time frame.
Now in a few year, the majors are going to be hitting the stride of hiring. That may bring times

You may want to become a member of the Private Naval Aviator's forum. I have a whole tread on there about my experience at a regional. I've been there for a little under 2 years. I was early in the wave of helo pilots there. I haven't see any of the helo pilots around my time frame leave to go to majors yet. Some have gone to Low Cost Carriers though.

Hope that helps.
 

RedFive

Well-Known Member
pilot
None
Contributor
Anecdotal data from gold wingers on a different site:
-Navy helo guy (no military fixed-wing besides training) just got an interview with Allegiant at 400hrs (SIC) at PSA.
-Cobra guy hit 1,000 hours 121 sic got hired by Delta (but had 3600 hrs AH-1)
-Another Navy helo bubba, started with SkyWest Feb18. Job offer with Atlas 747 in December. He's at 650 hrs ME part 121, nearing 1000 TT FW.

Do you know what you're getting into with CBP? I flew with them out of NASNI once and worked with them on Counter Narcotics missions, so I picked their brain quite a bit. First of all, it's shift work. You get assigned to an 8 hour shift. You have to be there for the entire shift whether you're flying or not. You don't have a ground job if you don't want one, but...get used to watching youtube videos to pass the time. You can fly both fixed- and rotary-wing which is awesome. Day-to-day, you might go out for a 3-4 hour bag, but a lot of it will be burning time. I flew in their King Air, we got up to altitude, flew down the coast of Mexico, boxed it off, and went north to shoot an approach at SBA, then went home. They had a sensor operator in the back who was a retired USCG Rescue Swimmer. We bullshitted the entire flight while he looked at random contacts.

You don't have much choice in your initial assignment location. Get ready to live in East Texas or Puerto Rico, those are their normal initial assignments (I personally wouldn't mind the latter, but that's me). The organization is flooded with Army types and they do a lot of things the Army way. Have fun with that. If you end up on the Customs side, know that they are only legally permitted to interdict in our TTWs. That's a huge limitation. Huge. If you actually want to make busts, you're better off at HITRON with the USCG or possibly HSM-60 on the Reserve side (not sure how much action they're getting lately).

On the other hand, you could suck it up at a Regional for a year or two, supplement your income with the Reserves, and then buy your own helo once you're making real money at the majors. Just an idea.

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Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
Very helpful info from both of you... Thanks! Sounds like the recruiters value our experience quite a bit over civilian types, even with far fewer hours. That's great to hear. I hear horror stories of civilians being stuck in Regionals for 10+ years, which is what makes CBP look a lot better, despite it's shortcomings. Sounds like that isn't much of a concern for us, though.

Also, I should note that I went to NPS for my shore tour, so I'm at only 950 hours TT. HEMS, GOM flying and such aren't open to me at this point. Would it be safe to assume that my low military time will just mean I need a bit more (maybe 6-12 months worth) of 121 time to make myself competitive compared to, say, the Cobra pilot you mentioned with 3600 helo hours?

Thanks again
 

HokiePilot

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Very helpful info from both of you... Thanks! Sounds like the recruiters value our experience quite a bit over civilian types, even with far fewer hours. That's great to hear. I hear horror stories of civilians being stuck in Regionals for 10+ years, which is what makes CBP look a lot better, despite it's shortcomings. Sounds like that isn't much of a concern for us, though.

Also, I should note that I went to NPS for my shore tour, so I'm at only 950 hours TT. HEMS, GOM flying and such aren't open to me at this point. Would it be safe to assume that my low military time will just mean I need a bit more (maybe 6-12 months worth) of 121 time to make myself competitive compared to, say, the Cobra pilot you mentioned with 3600 helo hours?

Thanks again
I would say it would take longer than that. It takes multiple tours to get 3600 hours. Probably a command tour too. It is not just a simple question of hours. The majors try to look at the whole person when deciding who to hire.

I say go for a regional.
 

RedFive

Well-Known Member
pilot
None
Contributor
Would it be safe to assume that my low military time will just mean I need a bit more (maybe 6-12 months worth) of 121 time to make myself competitive compared to, say, the Cobra pilot you mentioned with 3600 helo hours?
I think as time progresses and airline hiring intensifies, we're seeing a slow shift. We've gone from Regionals recruiting helo guys to Southwest. JetBlue counts helo time. It's not a golden ticket, but there's a slow yet steady shift. 10 years ago my college peers in the civilian world were living on pizza and 30k/year. Things have changed. Majors are hiring Regional guys who only have SIC time. From all the advice I've received here, I would conservatively plan for 1000-2000 hours at the Regional before you can jump ship. I am only regurgitating the information/advice I've received and am, like you, just a JO. Ask me how things are in a year...
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Anecdotal data from gold wingers on a different site:
-Navy helo guy (no military fixed-wing besides training) just got an interview with Allegiant at 400hrs (SIC) at PSA.

-Another Navy helo bubba, started with SkyWest Feb18. Job offer with Atlas 747 in December. He's at 650 hrs ME part 121, nearing 1000 TT FW.
Both are better than a regional but Allegiant is a bottom feeder and Atlas is almost a bottom feeder.

A couple of years ago Allegiant fired a Captain who did an evac after landing when there was smoke in the cabin. Plus they are well know for their shitty work rules and mediocre pay.

Atlas used to be an okay place to work but their contract expired years ago and the negotiations have been very contentious to include multiple court cases. It's a revolving door on pilots and their pay and work rules are stuck at 10 years ago. It's not a happy place.

The goal of almost everyone who is hired at Allegiant or Atlas is to move on as quickly as possible. We have many pilots from both.

JetBlue counts helo time.
So does Hawaiian. We always have. You need enough fixed wing multi turbine to qualify for your ATP and to do all training in the sim. I don't know what that is but helo counts toward are total time and PIC time minimums.
 

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor
Moving target right now with the uptick in hiring at all majors. In 2015 when I first started watching this scene, seemed like helo guys were doing 3-5 years at a regional before they got the call. Now, my Helo peers with T-6 IP time are either going straight to a major if they have enough PIC time and their ATP, or are doing short stints in the regionals, on the order of 6-12 months. The pay cut isn't great, but it's something you can plan for and supplement with Reserves. Tougher with a family and a mortgage, but do-able if you don't want to fly a desk in the civilian world.

For you, with just one flying tour, it's probably going to look like a longer timeframe. There are ways to minimize the pain by moving into a junior base and taking an early upgrade. How do you like Detriot vs SoCal? ?

Edit: On the CBP front, have known two squadronmates who did it and left, I'd avoid unless you really love the SW Border area. They said the work was mildly rewarding, but the administrative BS and locations were the same games as the military that they left. Make sure you talk to non-recruiters.
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
Thanks everyone for the input and advice! One good thing about my situation is I will have severance pay to make the low pay in the regionals not a big deal, even with my longer time there. Plus, with all the retirements I think the moving target is moving in our favor rather quickly, barring a big recession that lingers (politicians now days have me worried actually).

A couple of you mentioned I'd be on a longer timeline obviously compared to a VT IP or the like, but am I off base by assuming/hoping to only spend 3 years or less in the minors if things don't get worse? If VT guys are going straight to majors with 3 more years than me flying FW, I can't imagine 3 years in 121 land wouldn't way more than catch me up, right?
 

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor
Thanks everyone for the input and advice! One good thing about my situation is I will have severance pay to make the low pay in the regionals not a big deal, even with my longer time there. Plus, with all the retirements I think the moving target is moving in our favor rather quickly, barring a big recession that lingers (politicians now days have me worried actually).

A couple of you mentioned I'd be on a longer timeline obviously compared to a VT IP or the like, but am I off base by assuming/hoping to only spend 3 years or less in the minors if things don't get worse? If VT guys are going straight to majors with 3 more years than me flying FW, I can't imagine 3 years in 121 land wouldn't way more than catch me up, right?

No one knows, but I’d say you’re close. Two things you’re missing is: T-6 IP time is almost all FW Turbine PIC, which is almost the most valuable time to build behind Multi Engine Turbine PIC or Pointy Nose PIC. You’ll spend a year plus at a regional getting SIC time before you’ll be eligible to upgrade to Captain and earn PIC time. Second, they’ve gotten networking opportunities with fellow JOs and Reserve IPs who are already at a major. The second one isn’t a silver bullet, but having letters of recommendation in your file from people already there does help.

If you look at the hiring stats, straight civilian pilots have to get 4/5/6k+ hours to be competitive, but straight military and military plus civilian (where most helo guys end up) have much lower hours on average. Is that stat dragged down by 1501 hr fighter guys? Sure. But you’re in the ballpark.

Again, one thing I’d mention is do your research and try to minimize your pain while at a regional. 3 years commuting or pinching pennies in a high cost of living area on regional FO pay will be tough. You’re also about to be paying normal people taxes and maybe state income tax again.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
You’ll spend a year plus at a regional getting SIC time before you’ll be eligible to upgrade to Captain and earn PIC time.

Out of curiosity, generally speaking in the -121 world, can you not log your SIC time as PIC time while at the controls? I'm not asking what the FARs say, I'm just curious what's generally accepted/expected by the hiring folks?

On the rotary side, no one bats an eye at having more PIC time than what your HAC time would be, which is why I ask.
 

HokiePilot

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Out of curiosity, generally speaking in the -121 world, can you not log your SIC time as PIC time while at the controls? I'm not asking what the FARs say, I'm just curious what's generally accepted/expected by the hiring folks?

On the rotary side, no one bats an eye at having more PIC time than what your HAC time would be, which is why I ask.

The applications at the majors all state they only want to see PIC time when you are acting as the PIC.

You could continue to log PIC time in accordance with the FARs to demonstrate aeronautical experience to the FAA for getting another rating, but there is not much after after ATP.
 

HokiePilot

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
BTW, It is amazing how many people at my airline don't actually log flights. Or at least log it in the aircraft. You can go back on our schedule to get out and in times, but that only goes back a month and it doesn't include tail numbers.

Obviously the company has the records somewhere, but they don't make it accessible to us. I regularly hear about guys trying to rebuild their logbook.

After not doing it during IOE, I quickly realized I needed to log my flight on my phone right after blocking in.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Out of curiosity, generally speaking in the -121 world, can you not log your SIC time as PIC time while at the controls? I'm not asking what the FARs say, I'm just curious what's generally accepted/expected by the hiring folks?

On the rotary side, no one bats an eye at having more PIC time than what your HAC time would be, which is why I ask.
This is the difference between Part 61 PIC (sole manipulator of the controls) and Part 1 PIC (HMFIC). Airlines want Part 1 where corporations and insurance companies are good with Part 61.

Airlines want to know your “command” (as our friends the Brits like to call it) experience. They figure you can fly so they don’t really care about Part 61.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
This is the difference between Part 61 PIC (sole manipulator of the controls) and Part 1 PIC (HMFIC). Airlines want Part 1 where corporations and insurance companies are good with Part 61.

Airlines want to know your “command” (as our friends the Brits like to call it) experience. They figure you can fly so they don’t really care about Part 61.

Gotcha. I figured that was the case, and understood the FAR difference, but couldn't remember what you guys had said in the past about the company/industry standard.
 
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