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The Great AW Working Hours Debate of 2018

whitesoxnation

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Dang 60 hours a week? That’s a vaca compared to what someone works trying to be good at their ground job and flying (and PME and staying in shape and everything else you gotta do). Sign me up!
 

wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Officer
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Dang 60 hours a week? That’s a vaca compared to what someone works trying to be good at their ground job and flying (and PME and staying in shape and everything else you gotta do). Sign me up!
Sure. You put up with it in the military for the unique experience and job satisfaction. When you have had your fill or come to retire you may think you can hack 60+ hours a week year after year, but you won't. Not much in CIVPAC is worth that much of your life, especially with children in the family.
 

scoolbubba

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Sure. You put up with it in the military for the unique experience and job satisfaction. When you have had your fill or come to retire you may think you can hack 60+ hours a week year after year, but you won't. Not much in CIVPAC is worth that much of your life, especially with children in the family.

Bingo. The goal is to work as little as possible for as much money as possible.

If the company wants more of my time...FUPM.
 

Pags

Pope of Chili Town
pilot
Sure. You put up with it in the military for the unique experience and job satisfaction. When you have had your fill or come to retire you may think you can hack 60+ hours a week year after year, but you won't. Not much in CIVPAC is worth that much of your life, especially with children in the family.
Concur.

Caveat Emptor: There's a huge difference between 60hrs/week of work that includes flight prep, briefing, flying, debriefing; ground job; JPME; and PT and a job that is 60hrs/wk of a desk job. If you're going in to a job that requires a time commitment like that then you'd better make sure you're getting paid appropriately either via OT, large salary, or bonus. A good friend of mine got an Ivy League Law Degree and the associated amounts of debt so he went to work for an NYC law firm to pay off his loans quickly. He works 80hrs/wk and makes bank. But he has little time or energy to enjoy it. So while his salary is enviable his QOL is not.
 
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Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Sure. You put up with it in the military for the unique experience and job satisfaction. When you have had your fill or come to retire you may think you can hack 60+ hours a week year after year, but you won't. Not much in CIVPAC is worth that much of your life, especially with children in the family.
I think people put up with it in the military for the same reasons they put up with it in private industry - youth. Eventually you come to realize that you don't have to work like a dog to prove yourself... or to have a satisfying, successful career.
 

Pags

Pope of Chili Town
pilot
You guys keep using this acronym. What is this? Are you refering to the JMPS computers? Or maybe it's some sort of JOPA MEETING?
Yuck yuck yuck. I did 90% of Phase I JPME, including the two "hardest" classes, before I found out that I was 1xFOS at which point I put down "The Tide At Sunrise*" and emailed my prof telling him I was withdrawing. At no point did I consider JPME to be difficult or particularly time intensive. I usually did the papers in a few days while watching TV and drinking beer and passed with As. I tried to do the work at the Squadron but it competed with other JO requirements (shooting nerf guns at each other). While I get that it's additional scope to an already busy schedule it's not like the services have asked you to go get a PhD.

*I later picked it up again and finished it because I'm a huge dork. I actually enjoyed most of the readings and coursework associated with JPME.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
You guys keep using this acronym. What is this? Are you refering to the JMPS computers? Or maybe it's some sort of JOPA MEETING?
It's something I did so that I'd have a "yeah, but" comeback all ready to go in future job interviews- when the inevitable question about my shitty undergrad GPA gets raised. The price was right and the subject material was usually interesting. Except JOPES. Learning JOPES was about as interesting as memorizing hydraulic system limits.
 

Sculpin

Well-Known Member
My son interviewed with SpaceX's launch division. He found it was just as has been described here. 60 hour weeks. Mandatory Saturdays and 7 day work weeks during a surge. He asked what counted as a surge beyond the obvious launch. He was told they were pretty regular. In the group he was interviewing for out of 6 engineers 4 had been there less than two years with less than 5 years experience. The boss, while he had more experience else where, had been at SpaceX for just 3 years.The internet was full of stories about how SpaceX ate up and burned out its people. It was reccomened for new graduates looking for the resume bullet that could give up 2-3 years of their life. He passed.
60 hours and weekends is not bad if one is in their 20s. Even working a consistent 70-80+ is doable from personal experience, and to be fair, I was doing that and more in college so the transition wasn't too bad. What does suffer is everything else. Prepare to lose many of your friends, hobbies, SO, sanity, etc., which isn't a fun way to spend your 20s. I'm very happy to have gotten out of that bind. I think your son made a very wise decision. I bet the SpaceX recruiters told him they have amazing work-life balance (what they and every other company has told me).
 

wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Officer
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
60 hours and weekends is not bad if one is in their 20s. Even working a consistent 70-80+ is doable from personal experience, and to be fair, I was doing that and more in college so the transition wasn't too bad. What does suffer is everything else. Prepare to lose many of your friends, hobbies, SO, sanity, etc., which isn't a fun way to spend your 20s. I'm very happy to have gotten out of that bind. I think your son made a very wise decision. I bet the SpaceX recruiters told him they have amazing work-life balance (what they and every other company has told me).
What got him thinking is why average seniority is 3 years, and what kind of experience/wisdom a manger is going to have at 30 years old, 5 years an engineer and 3 at the company. Obviously SpaceX people, even the young, did not find anything worth while to justify grueling hours with no end in sight. He is at Baker Hughes. 4 year engineer. Runs an additive manufacturing program. Doesnt work near 60 hours. Was an aero guy so was casting about trying to get into aero. SpaceX wasn't the right fit even though the job was enticing.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
60 hours and weekends is not bad if one is in their 20s. Even working a consistent 70-80+ is doable from personal experience, and to be fair, I was doing that and more in college so the transition wasn't too bad. What does suffer is everything else. Prepare to lose many of your friends, hobbies, SO, sanity, etc., which isn't a fun way to spend your 20s. I'm very happy to have gotten out of that bind. I think your son made a very wise decision. I bet the SpaceX recruiters told him they have amazing work-life balance (what they and every other company has told me).
60 hours a week isn't bad in your 20s and leaves plenty of time for working out, booze, late nights, etc. If you lose friends because you're working hard to set yourself up financially and professionally in your 30s like you should, then you never had friends to begin with. Also, if you can't do 5x12 hour days as a 22-26 year old and still work out 6 days a week, find a productive hobby for saturday/sunday afternoon, and spend 2+ nights at the bar/club, you just can't hang. I'm not saying that you should ask for such a work schedule long-term, but if that's what it takes to break in and get ahead in your industry, it's not really all that bad.

It's when you have a wife and kids and someone other than yourself needs your time that the calculus changes.

There are many people who work 60 hours a week in their 20s because 3x part-time near minimum wage jobs is the only way to make the rent and eat rice and beans. There are also people who barely work at all because they live at home; those are the people who generally end up eventually finding relatively low paying careers in their 30s. One of the things that always hit me when visiting my hometown was seeing old friends who were still in the grind in their late 20s/early 30s with no clear path out.
 

Sculpin

Well-Known Member
60 hours a week isn't bad in your 20s and leaves plenty of time for working out, booze, late nights, etc. If you lose friends because you're working hard to set yourself up financially and professionally in your 30s like you should, then you never had friends to begin with. Also, if you can't do 5x12 hour days as a 22-26 year old and still work out 6 days a week, find a productive hobby for saturday/sunday afternoon, and spend 2+ nights at the bar/club, you just can't hang. I'm not saying that you should ask for such a work schedule long-term, but if that's what it takes to break in and get ahead in your industry, it's not really all that bad.
I agree with this. I'm puzzled how I could still do what you described and more while working 80 hours a week compared to many colleagues and friends clocking out at 40 max who "can't hang", as you put it. I think Netflix binging, oversleeping, and other major time sinks play a big role. Still, 40 additional hours sunk into work is 40 hours lost not doing other things. For people with a plethora of hobbies and too many friends and networks to know what to do with, cutting down is a very natural and expected consequence. If it means you go out 2-3 times a week instead of 7, so be it. Unfortunate, but it's what happens for tons of people. Personally, I'm a workaholic, so it works out on a personal level either way. I'm technically working 2 jobs these days, and it's not bad. Cut out the time sinks, and people are surprised how much time they suddenly have on hand.
 
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Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
d
I agree with this. I'm puzzled how I could still do what you described and more while working 80 hours a week compared to many colleagues and friends clocking out at 40 max who "can't hang", as you put it. I think Netflix binging, oversleeping, and other major time sinks play a big role. Still, 40 additional hours sunk into work is 40 hours lost not doing other things. For people with a plethora of hobbies and too many friends and networks to know what to do with, cutting down is a very natural and expected consequence. If it means you go out 2-3 times a week instead of 7, so be it. Unfortunate, but it's what happens for tons of people. Personally, I'm a workaholic, so it works out on a personal level either way. I'm technically working 2 jobs these days, and it's not bad. Cut out the time sinks, and people are surprised how much time they suddenly have on hand.
I said 60, not 80. I'd generally agree that over 60 hours is beyond the tipping point of work/life balance, even for a single 20 something.
 

wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Officer
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
What is wrong with you people and the companies you work for or wish to. Except for the rare occasion of a surge or rush, or a temporary manning crisis no one should settle for working for the man over 40 hours as routine. It is utter B.S. You run your own business, you do what you have to. You are commission only, it's totally your call. But to be a salaried employee and be required to work 50+ hours as a matter of routine is down right Japanese. I don't care how much you are paid. To pretend that an 80 hour week is ever acceptable is insane. In most jobs it is dangerous and is certainly unhealthy. It would be illegal to treat hourly workers in such a manner.

Workers of the unite!! Throw off the yoke of oppression. Do not accept the tyranny of THE MAN. Demand reasonable work rules.
 

picklesuit

Living the GeoBachelor dream...
pilot
Contributor
What is wrong with you people and the companies you work for or wish to. Except for the rare occasion of a surge or rush, or a temporary manning crisis no one should settle for working for the man over 40 hours as routine. It is utter B.S. You run your own business, you do what you have to. You are commission only, it's totally your call. But to be a salaried employee and be required to work 50+ hours as a matter of routine is down right Japanese. I don't care how much you are paid. To pretend that an 80 hour week is ever acceptable is insane. In most jobs it is dangerous and is certainly unhealthy. It would be illegal to treat hourly workers in such a manner.

Workers of the unite!! Throw off the yoke of oppression. Do not accept the tyranny of THE MAN. Demand reasonable work rules.
Unless you are a doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, work in almost ANY agricultural field, do I need to go on?

The 40 hour work week is a cute ideal for cubicle critters and hourly workers, but for almost anyone in a skilled profession it’s unrealistic.
 
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