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T4O and the FRS

jointhelocalizer

Well-Known Member
pilot
With the E-2D coming online and the capability for the right seat to act as a Tactical Fourth Operator, what type of training are new E-2D pilots getting on controlling aircraft? Is there a AIC 101 portion of the RAG? Do pilots get an AIC number/designation? Do they do OJT at their fleet squadron?
 

TexasTools

Active Member
None
The 99.9% answer is T4Os don’t control aircraft. In some fleet sims, instructors will sometimes force a scenario where the T4O ends up executing procedural (ATC style) control of a battle space.

E-2 pilots do become familiar with AIC and the A/A concepts over time with OTJ in the fleet, but there is no formalized AIC training for pilots.

The T4O’s main focus is EW integration. Most of the training is OJT in the fleet, with the new fleet syllabus integrating more dedicated sims to particular skills. Time at the FRS is focused on flying the aircraft and CQ, and then some AR in the near future.

I did have a pilot in my fleet squadron who expressed interest in getting “qualified” to be an AIC, but after about 20 minutes into academics he decided it was better to focus on more relevant things. As an MC, I’d be hard pressed to give a pilot AIC responsibilities except in extremis. There are times where non-verbal TCC (grabbing someone’s shoulder and shaking them) is critical to get them to immediately focus on something extremely important.

That last part probably sounds extremely weird to anybody who’s not an E-2 guy, but it’s just the way we do things and it works.
 

OscarMyers

Well-Known Member
None
Will they fly it single piloted with an NFO right seat?
The thought is that its easier to teach a Pilot to do some mission enhancing tasks from T-40 then it is to teach an NFO to copilot the Hawkeye behind the boat. Honestly, I wouldn't want to get my NFO on with the T40 tiny keyboard strapped to my knee. Its not a great interface, but its good enough for what its being used for.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
There are times where non-verbal TCC (grabbing someone’s shoulder and shaking them) is critical to get them to immediately focus on something extremely important.

That last part probably sounds extremely weird to anybody who’s not an E-2 guy or a VAQ guy who grew up in Prowlers, but it’s just the way we do things and it works.
FTFY. :D
 

TexasTools

Active Member
None
Will they fly it single piloted with an NFO right seat?
There’s been a lot of discussion about Co-FO (NFO as the Copilot), but the general consensus is it’s not worth it. Until we get an easier plane to fly, we’re going to want 2 pilots up there.

Do we fly single piloted with NFOs? Yes, it’s not uncommon. But it’s more of a good deal for the NFO (last flight), or a manning issue. For one of our fly-offs from cruise, we didn’t have enough pilots to fill the seats, so an NFO got to go up front for it.
 

TexasTools

Active Member
None
The thought is that its easier to teach a Pilot to do some mission enhancing tasks from T-40 then it is to teach an NFO to copilot the Hawkeye behind the boat. Honestly, I wouldn't want to get my NFO on with the T40 tiny keyboard strapped to my knee. Its not a great interface, but its good enough for what its being used for.

100%. I’ve done OIR DCA control from the right seat, and while it was freaking awesome to have a view while doing that, I realized if I was doing actual CSG AD I would have wanted to throw the T4O kneeboard out the hatch. I think part of it is that we’re such creatures of habit, and nothing is in the spot we’re used to it being.
 

wiseguy04

The Dude abides....
pilot
Will they fly it single piloted with an NFO right seat?

We have done this on a couple of Fallon missions. Having four patch-wearers in the plane enabled a very “stacked” crew for the mission.

For the boat, it made sense to have a pilot in the right seat, just due to the added risk of CV ops.
 

wiseguy04

The Dude abides....
pilot
Sounds like a missed training opportunity for some non-patch-wearing nuggets to me.

Agreed. But it was only two VX test missions in addition to the exercise, so they were all shore-tour bubbas. More of a good deal.

But not practical for real-world missions. See my previous comments about the boat.
 

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor
There’s been a lot of discussion about Co-FO (NFO as the Copilot), but the general consensus is it’s not worth it. Until we get an easier plane to fly, we’re going to want 2 pilots up there.

Do we fly single piloted with NFOs? Yes, it’s not uncommon. But it’s more of a good deal for the NFO (last flight), or a manning issue. For one of our fly-offs from cruise, we didn’t have enough pilots to fill the seats, so an NFO got to go up front for it.

You didn’t have eight pilots? Or by seniority the nuggets didn’t rank?
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
For one of our fly-offs from cruise, we didn’t have enough pilots to fill the seats, so an NFO got to go up front for it.
For my last flyoff I had the XO (NFO) in my right seat. Forget why we were short a pilot. No touchie the condition levers, sir.

He kept @#$-ing with the radios and acting important, and I kept missing calls. :mad:Much better to have had the junior-ist guy next to me.

I’m surprised more planes aren’t lost at sea during fly offs.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
I’m surprised more planes aren’t lost at sea during fly offs.
Ah yes, the one time fly off waiver...

First long cruise flyoff, about halfway to the Chambers heliport, my crew chief asks where we are. HAC and I look at each other, tell him, and he says “good, cause I’m looking at a bigass hole in the bird and I don’t wanna go back to the boat.”

(Station 308, I think?)

that particular buno did not fly again for a long time.
 

TexasTools

Active Member
None
For my last flyoff I had the XO (NFO) in my right seat. Forget why we were short a pilot. No touchie the condition levers, sir.

He kept @#$-ing with the radios and acting important, and I kept missing calls. :mad:Much better to have had the junior-ist guy next to me.

I’m surprised more planes aren’t lost at sea during fly offs.
Before that fly off, the JO CAPC that was taking the NFO with him for fly off told skipper (Pilot) that he wanted to take him for a flight on the boat before we went back to Norfolk so he could get comfortable. I was confused and asked the CAPC “Wait, are you saying the beach is more dangerous than the boat?” His response was basically that he hasn’t landed on a runway in at least a month, and that there’s a reason we brief landing coordination every single time. I hadn’t even thought of that. Made me look at fly offs from a whole new perspective.

Every fly off I’ve been a part of, theres always some stupid shenanigans that comes up. On one during workups, I was sitting tower flower when one of the planes gets launched off cat 1 and starts dumping fuel immediately. Lasts about 3-5 seconds I’d say. Boss and mini were both E-2 guys. Boss looks at me (fairly new ACO, first underway for basically all of JOPA) and I just go “I’m pretty sure that’s not supposed to happen...” and he responds “That’s pretty embarrassing.”

I hate when people talk over the radio on “normal” flights. I’d tell my junior NFOs, if you’re going to have the pilots selected, you’re going to have radio 1 monitored as well. I couldn’t grasp how that wasn’t common sense.
 
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