Surgery waiver

[kaidogg]

Hey all
i shipped to ocs for occ 181 but was medically disqualified for a knee problem. turns out i had been running around with a torn acl, and both my menisci were torn as well. since then, i have had surgery and had two titanium screws put in, which is routine. my oso says that there is no possible way to get into ocs with hardware of any kind in your body, even if it won't affect your performance down the road. is this completely accurate? where could i find USMC medical regs online?
i would rather not get these screws taken out, as it would be another surgical procedure and insurance would most likely not pay as it won't be deemed 'necessary'.

any info would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Frumby]

As I understand it, no that is not a true statement. I would suggest asking another OSO who is not in your city. I had a friend who was accepted to OCS in 1984 but broke his ankle just before leaving. He had a titanium rod put in to hold his ankle together. It was 2 more years before he was able to go to OCS. He is currently the XO of a 46 squadron. Considering how restrictive the physical requirements were back then especially for aviators, I find it hard to believe the OSO's statement. It might be a true statement, presently. Your timing might just be off and they can be selective. I don't know but that is why I suggest talking to another OSO. Never hurts to ask. Good Luck! Frumby

Attack Pilot
Major USMCR

 

[kaidogg]

thanks frumby, i will get in touch with another oso.

 

[avball]

Good luck, kaidogg. I'm in a similar situation myself, though a little different. I haven't finished school yet and am trying to do an enlisted tour first. I know TBS is more physically demanding than MCRT, but my recruiter claims that as long as I can get the doc to sign something stating I'm 100% and should have no physical problems with boot camp, any MOS is open. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information floating around out there - I heard second hand (supposedly from another recruiter) that I would be disqualified from combat arms and aviation with any hardware, but my local recruiter said that was nonsense. My current plan is to enlist, finish school, and unless I find a better route into the cockpit, apply for MECEP and keep applying until I either get in or finish my B.S. and start applying to OCS. Let me know what you find from the other OSO - I'll pay to get my hardware removed if I absolutely have to, but I'd really prefer not to bear that expense and downtime (not to mention added risk to disqualification in the event of surgical complications). Any advice from Marines or Sailors (especially Naval Aviators, obviously) is welcome.

edit: On top of that, I wear glasses. I came across some info regarding some sort of Naval study regarding aviators and PRK surgery - can anybody tell me about that? Are jets a possibility for me?

 

[Aimee]

I don't know if it is different for Navy/Marines, but I had ACL surgery and have a titanium screw in my knee. MEPS sent me for an ortho consult and I was good to go. Heading to OCS in February.

 

[avball]

Glad to hear it, Aimee, and congratulations. I'm seeing my old ortho doc on the 30th for a consultation and hopefully a letter stating all is well. I've had a surgery for dislocated patella as well as a titanium nail through the length of my femur due to a head on collision, but everything seems to work just fine now. I am fairly confident the doc will give me a go; I'm just going to be a little anxious until I actually earn that EGA, then I can start being anxious about wings

 

[Crowbar]

About the surgery/hardware thing, I don't know.

Avball-
"My current plan is to enlist, finish school, and unless I find a better route into the cockpit, apply for MECEP and keep applying until I either get in or finish my B.S. and start applying to OCS. "

Not to kill your spirit, but it's not just as easy as "Apply for MECEP". The selection rate from this year's MECEP board was 28%. Don't believe me? Check the MCRC website. That's up from a few years ago when the selection rate was an abysmal 10-12%. (2002 was a fluke-the selection rate was higher...much higher...than 28%.) Now you're probably thinking, "Who the hell is this guy and what does he know about MECEP?" I am a MECEP student. It took me three years to get in. I wasn't the only person at MECEP Prep who applied three times. Not to mention, before you can "apply for MECEP and keep applying until I either get in or finish my B.S. and start applying to OCS" you have to meet some requirements-to begin with, you have to be at least a Corporal, which takes about 2-4 years depending on your MOS.

Hate to sound negative, but people who get into MECEP work their asses off for it. It's not the most sought after program in the Marine Corps for no reason. If your recruiter (only a recruiter would tell you to enlist, an OSO would tell you to finish college) made it sound like MECEP is a cake walk, don't believe it.

Good luck in the Marine Corps. I am certainly not trying to turn you off to it. I just don't want you thinking that applying for MECEP is like applying for a Discover card-YOU'VE BEEN PREAPPROVED! It's not.

 

[avball]

Oh, I don't have illusions about MECEP being easy. My recruiter just got accepted this year - he's a SSGT with a bunch of decorations, excellent recruiting numbers, a 300 PFT, etc, etc... and he only just got accepted. He mentioned it as a possibility and showed me the order, but he did not in any way try to make it sound easy or likely. I plan to continue school to the extent possible and assuming I am not deployed for an extended period of time, I ought to have more than 60 credits by the time I make CPL. If I don't make MECEP, I can still apply to OCS without it if I've got the degree, right? It might be slightly easier to get into that cockpit if I stay with school and a good PT regimen, but I want to enlist first for a variety of reasons that probably don't all make a lot of sense - especially to a civilian or somebody who is asking what the military can do for them. Let's just say that for now I feel it's where I belong. A lot of my friends and family thing I'm a bit crazy now, but this is what I have devoted myself to doing. Anyway, I don't mean to come across as excessively defensive or hostile, simply trying to make it clear that I am serious about what I am doing.

 

[Frumby]

Kai, I just talked to the Houston OSO and discussed your problem with him. First he stated that OCC 181 had an average PFT of 268, AQT of 5 and FAR of 7, SAT 1060 and GPA above a 2.0 but determined by your major. IE 2.0 in PoliSci is different then a 2.0 in Chemical Engineering. Your main goal is your PFT. Score better then a 268 and you should have no problem. He did say also that if your OSO will not process you then FIND another OSO.
To all who "freak out" at those numbers I just posted, please, remember these are just averages and not a guideline. Keep that in mind. Good luck. Frumby

Attack Pilot
Major USMCR

 

[Crowbar]

Avball-
You are right about getting commissioned without a degree. If you have your heart set on enlisting first, that's hard core. Good luck to you. Like most people will say, being a mustang gives you a leg up on most people in that you've seen both sides of things. Just remember that once you enlist, you're playing by the Corps's rules and they can get a better evaluation on whether or not you will make a "good" officer. Works for some people, works against others.

We do have a program called MCP-Meritorious Commissioning Program-that allows you to get commissioned without a degree. But, you have to have at least 75 college credits (I think this can be waivered to 60). Also, only about 10 people are picked for this each time the board meets, which is 3 or 4 times each year. However, if you get in, you go right to OCS and get commissioned and start being a LT right away. Something new within the last two years allows for 1stLt's who went through this program to be allowed to finish their degrees in a fashion similar to MECEP. It's even called MCP-DCP. Meritorious Commissioning Program-Degree Completion Program. But instead of being a Sgt or SSgt going to college, you are an officer finishing your BS/BA degree. I read the message when it came out and I think MCP graduates are "encouraged" and "expected" to apply.

As far as how much college can you finish while you are in-it depends on you and your situation. I've known some who went from zero to college graduate in four years. I've known others who were always deployed or working 16 hour days and never set foot in a classroom. Most people fall out in the middle. By the time I left the fleet for college (8 yrs in service), I had 56 hours of credit, feel free to check my math which gives me an average of 7 sememester hrs/yr. Not the best progress ever. But if you are as determined as you seem, you can get plenty accomplished.

Feel free to ask more questions,
"Your friendly enlisted advisor"
Crowbar

 

[kaidogg]

Frumby
yeah, i shipped to ocs for occ 181. i had a 252 pft, can't recall my flight test scores but they were pretty high, i had a 1300 sat, and my gpa was a sad 2.5, but i was accepted anyway. i think a lot of what got me in was my leadership experience on sports teams and in various organizations (i.e. fraternity).
once i got to ocs, i sat through the good times of inprocessing only to be told by a navy ortho that something was just not right with my knee.
anyways, i have info on other oso's in the region, and seeing as how my local one is pretty adamant about the no hardware rule, i will probably be getting in touch with them soon. until then, i have the privelage of going through physical therapy for my acl surgery. good times.
thanks for all the info.

 

[avball]

SSgt Crowbar - I wasn't actually thinking of applying for OCS without a degree, just without MECEP. I was thinking that if I don't make it into MECEP, I'd just keep hacking at that degree on my own. I'll take that into consideration though. I want to be a Marine first and foremost, being an officer comes second, and being an aviator comes third. I'll do whatever the Corps needs me to do - I just feel that eventually I'd make a good officer and a good aviator, and I know not everybody can (or wants) to do that. At that same time, while it's not the number one priority, I DO want to be a combat aviator, so while I'm not going to skip out on enlisting for that, I'm still figuring out what I would need to do to get that chance.

Kaidogg, good luck to you - I would think that if you have already been accepted to OCS and just have the medical to work out, you'll eventually make it in if you can find an OSO who will work with you and a doc who will right a nice letter about that knee. Don't give up =)

By the way, I was planning to major Electrical Engineering with a minor in Philosophy - would something like Military Science or Aerospace Engineering give me a better shot? Also, I've heard that if I end up enlisted up through SGT, the NCO classes will give me an Associates Degree in Military Science - any confirmation on that? I probably wouldn't count on that route for my situation though, as I'm already 23, but still curious about it.

Edit: Is my enlisted MOS likely to have any bearing on my SNA application? I.e. Do I have a better shot as a 7371 than as an 0311?

Thanks again,
Adam

 

[Gator]

kaidogg,
I was scheduled to start OCS last December, but the ACL in my right knee in half the week before my report date. Since having reconstruction last January, I had one of the screws removed, but the Dr will not remove the one in my femur. It's not longer needed, but too risky to remove. I got my medical clearance from my surgeon (a civilian Dr) yesterday afternoon and should get my new OCS class date in a few weeks. The Navy is aware that I have a screw in my knee and it is apparently no problem at all. This could be due to the fact that I am under BDCP and already on active duty.
Additionally, a close friend of mine joined the Corps last years and did so with two pins in his wrist. He had to get a medical waiver, but it wasn't that hard. So it is possible under some circumstances.
Good luck!

 

[kaidogg]

thanks gator. i guess my oso isn't giving me all the necessary information after all.