Serious Helo Question

[EA-6B1]

If you have even glanced at any of the news about the campaign going on over in Iraq, then you've probably noticed the astonishing number of Helo crashes that have been talked about. My question, in all seriousness, is what's up? What's going on over there that we can't keep our birds from getting shot down/crashing into one another/crash landing? Today, another one crashed over there, and seeing the update about it on Foxnews is what has struck me to ask. I know when we first started OIF that a couple of birds crashed due to landing at night and the sand storms were so big it was hard to tell which way was up. That I understand. I just don't understand why we're losing our Helo's, mostly heavy birds, (Chinooks & Blackhawks) left and right. I know that things are going to happen in time of war, but this seems like we're losing too many Helo's and way too many lives.

Phrogdriver and 46Driver, maybe you guys could give me some insight. My thoughts and prayers go out to all the military personel involved in these tragic events. Thanks.

 

[46Driver]

Landing in the desert is tricky - especially at night. You get what is known as brownout where the rotor vertices whip the air into a waterfall effect - very disorientating. I saw it in Somalia, PhrogDriver I'm sure had it worse in Afghanistan, and we all see it at 29 Palms. Best way to avoid it is to come in low and fast so the sandstorm envelopes you from rear to front instead of a flight school vertical landing where you are at the center of the sandstorm.

As for getting shotdown, the statistics I've seen show that 90% of the helos are downed in the terminal environment (i.e., coming into the LZ). Small arms fire is bad enough, but a volley of cheap RPGs is the really dangerous stuff. Designed to take out armored vehicles, the RPG's reek havoc on helicopters. Also, being a "dumb" rocket, it is not susceptible to any countermeasures. The Iraqis are not dumb - you just have to figure out the LZ and then set an ambush. (Range of the RPG is about 500m tops - for all of your military specification questions, try www.globalsecurity.org ) As for missiles, the only ones you really worry about are the MANPADs which are all infrared.

Remember that we lost hundreds if not thousands of helos in the Vietnam War. Its a shame we never got to fly the AH-56 Cheyenne for ground support.

 

[version2point0]

did you say disorientating?

-v2.0

 

[Enishi1983]

whew, i was waiting for someone to make this post. so i am not the only one who thinks the same way huh? yeah, i just can't understand something like the guys crashing into each others; the military gave them enough training to pilot a helicopter, so why are they crashing into each other? this isn't a kamikaze mission is it?

 

[Fly Navy]

46Driver, back me up or tell me I'm wrong...but it is my thoughts that the number of crashes/shoot-downs are not high at all, compared to past engagements.

Folks, flying is dangerous, flying helicopters is even more dangerous, flying helicopters in a combat environment with many other aircraft around you is very dangerous. They aren't flying Cessna 172s out of a lazy uncontrolled airfield.

 

[46Driver]

If you ever fly a helo, you will understand. Helicopters, due to the vibrations, tend to cause vertigo much more often than airplanes - ask any of the students flying at South Field the difference between the T-34 and the TH-57. That doesn't even count the enveloping sandstorms you get when you try and land in bad environments.

Also, helicopters operate in much closer proximety to the ground and other aircraft than our fixed wing counterparts. It was a nighttime mission such as this with Phrogs flying into the LZ while Cobras were moving to the AP when we had our mid-air (Cobra T-boned a 46 fully loaded with pax.)

As for the crashes and shootdowns, a lot depends on tactics and obeying NATOPS. Crew rest is VERY important - NVG formation flight is very draining - its not something you can John Wayne tough it out. As for the shootdowns, much of that is tactics is well. A Cobra is not an A-10 - helos are relatively fragile compared to airplanes and just can not sustain the same amount of battle damage.

 

[phrogdriver]

I would like to re-emphasize brown-out. Landing in the desert(especially a Middle Eastern desert with its very fine sand) at night is the most challenging thing in aviation. Try sticking a landing when you see little, if any ground cues from 50' on down.

Helos are in the threat envelope of a lot of things, to incl small arms, RPGs, and MANPADS. We can't fly above the MANPAD threat, so we try to go low and at night. Unfortunately, you have to land and take off somewhere, which means you have to stop and be vulnerable. In Vietnam, we lost helos at the cyclic rate. Our technology and tactics have improved, but the risk is still there. We're not dropping bombs at 15000. We have to go into the bad neighborhoods--sometimes it can get close and personal. It's a different kind of flying, but don't let anyone say helos aren't tough.

 

[Q-ball]

Try being the size of a freight train with twice the heat signature. Sometimes I feel like I have a bullseye drawn on the side of my bird when I come into a zone. But hey, the grunts need a ride, and someone has to give it to them.

Q

 

[46Driver]

PhrogDriver and Q-ball,
Help me out here. Were the Phrogs still using the ALQ-157's (Disco Lights) and did they ever mount them on the $hitter$? I remember seeing them on 53D's back at New River but I have never seen them on a 53E. Matter of fact, I saw some Chinooks on the news flying around and I didn't see any ALQ's on them either.

 

[phrogdriver]

46s have the ALQ, AAR, and ALE. The 53E doesn't have the ALQ. I guess they figured that the ALQ doesn't have enough energy to outshine the 3 engines. The 46 is supposed to be the aircraft going into the hot zones, thus the ASE gear and the armor.

I don't think any of the regular line Army aircraft have ALQ-type gear, just chaff and flares, if that--I know I have seen Army birds w/out dispenser pods, but I don't know what the breakdown is. Their doctrine is so different. I still think a lot of the work is designed around employing battalion or greater manuever elements against the communist hordes.

Also, as far as the threat, remember that a lot of the fanatics out there cut their teeth against the Russians in Afghanistan, where the "SAMbush" was invented. They'll use multiple attacks and feints to force a target to expose its tail to the IR MANPAD. That's not even accounting for the newer SA-16 and higher all-aspect missiles floating around by the truckload.

 

[Skid27]

I thought the D's were using 157s and everyone else USMC had 144v1. Apaches and Blackhaws have 144AV(3) which has a wider spectrum. Don't know on chinooks, thought they had a 162. One shot down at OIF was a Guard bird with no IRCM installed.

 

[Enishi1983]

i know this is a stupid question, but does any of the us helos have an ejection option? you know, like james bond- goldeneye?

 

[46Driver]

I've never seen 144's on a Phrog - all I ever saw were the 157's. Interesting news on the Chinook not having IRCM installed - was the missile that shot it down a SA-7 or something more advanced?

Nope, no US helicopters have ejection seats or parachutes. You are riding it in.......

 

[Skid27]

Didn't realize the phrog had different ASE. Guess I never looked very closely. Report on 47's ASE was open source. More accurately, no IR Jammer and there is debate on whether they had fully functional dispensers. Some of their Squadron had no IRCM at all. Pentagon said the one hit had ALQ-156, but I never saw whether it was automatic dispense or not. Even with auto, at NOE, good luck trying reactive flares. Haven't seen what the missile was. Multiple plumes rear aspect sure sounds like FSU Grail tactics. Who knows.

 

[Flash]

The Army treats their helicopters a bit differently than the other services. They utilize just like jeeps or trucks. I have known a few Army helo pilots and they have said that they would often just jump right in and fly with a quick brief, it is much less formalized than the Navy, Marines or Air Force. This is in no way a hit against the the boys and girls in green, that is just their way of doing business. They got to have balls to fly in the conditions they fly in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Another thing is that adds onto the high accident rate is the sheer complexity of a helo. If the engines quit on her you have to pray that she autorotates okay. At least with a plane you can glide for a little bit. The rough conditions in which they are in every day does not help. That fine sand gets into everything, you are reminded of that when you eat and even the eggs/burger/noodles are crunchy. Even the best filters cannot keep that crap out.

Lastly, I don't want to be a jerk but should we really be discussing specific countermeasures are on which aircraft in an open forum? Just thought I should mention it.