I'm really jumping the gun here and you all will probably get a kick out of this, but here goes............I was having a discussion with my parents about getting selected as a pilot and my Dad being the pessimist he is said, "just be sure you fly something that you can turn into a job later on". Well, at this point I fully intend on retiring from the Navy and having roughly a million dollars in the bank, but I will want to continue to work after that time. And to be honest, you never know what the future holds. My question for you all is, do commercial airlines hire guys over 40 and if so can you land a job with them if you don't fly heavies? I know a guy who flew a helicopter in the army that now flies for Delta, but I'm sure times are changing. From what I've read commercial airlines are now hiring more non-military pilots than ever. At this point the type of plane I fly (hopefully I'll do good enough in primary to get a choice) should probably be the least of my worries, but do you all have any thoughts on this? - Brad
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P-3 vs. Jets vs. Helos
- Thread starter bpikula
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FlyBoyChris
Registered User
well brad i have actually heard several sides to this. First i have heard that the airlines like to hire people who fly the heavies because 1) they are going to have a great deal of multi, jet time and 2) they want someone who is acustomed to working with other people in the cockpit, arilines are rather found of that whole CRM thingy. I gues they feel that fighter jock will have more of a rebelious attitude.
I think it is really not as bad as they say for strike pilots to get pickedup by the majors. Even though it is true that they are hiring a great deal of of civie pilots, they are still hiring military guyas and gals too. The reason is they are hurting for pilots BADLY. i know American juts placed an order with boing for more then 50 of the 777s. Thats a lot of airplanes that needpilots to fly them, so a lot of the senior pilots will be moving up to fly those leaving more openings on some of the smaller planes. so i guess what i am saying is, they are running into problems where they have to few pilots for the planes they have.
When you get out of the service you should have a couple thousand hours of PIC time, if you go strike, then it will all be jet multi time, big bonus. The airlines go off the whole person concept i believe, so if you have the time and they like you, you shouldn't have a problem. As for helos i can't tell you anything about that.
Sorry didn't mean to rant. hope this helps a little
Chris
P.S. this is hat i have beentold by my academic advisor.
take care thanks
I think it is really not as bad as they say for strike pilots to get pickedup by the majors. Even though it is true that they are hiring a great deal of of civie pilots, they are still hiring military guyas and gals too. The reason is they are hurting for pilots BADLY. i know American juts placed an order with boing for more then 50 of the 777s. Thats a lot of airplanes that needpilots to fly them, so a lot of the senior pilots will be moving up to fly those leaving more openings on some of the smaller planes. so i guess what i am saying is, they are running into problems where they have to few pilots for the planes they have.
When you get out of the service you should have a couple thousand hours of PIC time, if you go strike, then it will all be jet multi time, big bonus. The airlines go off the whole person concept i believe, so if you have the time and they like you, you shouldn't have a problem. As for helos i can't tell you anything about that.
Sorry didn't mean to rant. hope this helps a little
Chris
P.S. this is hat i have beentold by my academic advisor.
take care thanks
FlyBoyChris
Registered User
Sorry that was a typo in my last post. AA just bought 15 on top of the 20 or so they have. And the age thing shouldn't be a rpoblem just don't expect to get a huge senoirity number before mandatory retirement.
Chris
take care thanks
Chris
take care thanks
Tripp
You think you hate it now...
Here's the scoop (as I have heard it from airline recruiters):
Yes, airlines hire people over 40. Currently, the mandatory retirement age is 60, so that still gives you over 20 years of flying for that particular airline.
Yes, you can easily land a job if you don't fly heavies. Airlines do like heavy time, but they also DO look favorably on Strike aircraft time. Basically, what it all boils down to is "Quality of Time." You can have 1500 hours, but if it's just bumming around in your Bonanza with your friends, that is not seen as "Quality Time." The airline industry pretty much views any military time as high in quality.
Most airlines will NOT consider Rotary Wing time when hiring. I know Delta for sure won't. Check each airline's website on their rough guidelines for hiring.
Yes, in 2000, approximately 60% of all pilots hired by the airlines recieved their training in a non-military environment.
Edited by - Tripp on 04/12/2001 13:17:36
Yes, airlines hire people over 40. Currently, the mandatory retirement age is 60, so that still gives you over 20 years of flying for that particular airline.
Yes, you can easily land a job if you don't fly heavies. Airlines do like heavy time, but they also DO look favorably on Strike aircraft time. Basically, what it all boils down to is "Quality of Time." You can have 1500 hours, but if it's just bumming around in your Bonanza with your friends, that is not seen as "Quality Time." The airline industry pretty much views any military time as high in quality.
Most airlines will NOT consider Rotary Wing time when hiring. I know Delta for sure won't. Check each airline's website on their rough guidelines for hiring.
Yes, in 2000, approximately 60% of all pilots hired by the airlines recieved their training in a non-military environment.
Edited by - Tripp on 04/12/2001 13:17:36
Thanks Chris and Tripp. You all pretty much answered everything for me. Oh yeah, that was my bad about the helicopter pilot/delta thing. Just talked to his son and apparently he was an army guy who switched over to the navy just so he could fly P-3's or something like that. I was a little off with my info. Anyway, thanks guys.
FlyBoyChris
Registered User
No problem always willing to answer to the best of my ability. 
Chris
take care thanks
Chris
take care thanks
Tripp
You think you hate it now...
Hey, no problem. In the short time I've been in AHP, I've learned an incredible amount about the airline & freight industry. I'm glad I could pass along some gouge.
About the Delta thing, I never doubted you, I was just stating what is in effect currently. In fact, I know of a United pilot who, when he was first hired as a pilot back in the '60s, didn't even know how to fly! Apparently, a bunch of United's pilots were called up as Reservists in the Vietnam War and UAL was desperate for interim pilots. Go figure.
Edited by - Tripp on 04/12/2001 18:57:14
About the Delta thing, I never doubted you, I was just stating what is in effect currently. In fact, I know of a United pilot who, when he was first hired as a pilot back in the '60s, didn't even know how to fly! Apparently, a bunch of United's pilots were called up as Reservists in the Vietnam War and UAL was desperate for interim pilots. Go figure.
Edited by - Tripp on 04/12/2001 18:57:14
Ok, you want the answer form a current airline pilot? If not, I don't give a shit. Here goes:
First, anything you fly will be beneficial. Air sense is air sense. Helo's always present a problem for some carriers but you can always fly for a commuter to build your fixed wing time and then fly for the big boys. American and especially United, do not care what type of aircraft you flew, just that you've got the hours documented. South west will not even consider a helo pilot. It all depends on the company personality and the demands of the industry.
There is also a belief out there that single seat guys are poor in the field of CRM(Cockpit Resource Management). On the contrary, single seat guys are required (at least USMC/USN) to take CRM classes. It is very rare to see a single fighter/attack aircraft take off as a solo. Most flights are in section. The two aircraft combined make a crew and if you do not think CRM is vital between two individual aircraft, think again.
Third, it will take you as long to get flight time in a P-3 as it would in a single seat. Pilot in command time is all you care about because that is what the airlines care about. You have to spend some time as copilot before you can become aircraft commander but in jets, day one you are PIC. Your flight time may not be as great but quality is everything.
Fourth, the military pilot pool has all but dried up. When you sign your contract now, you re commiting yourself to wings + 8 years. That will put most of you at +10 years in service. The military did that to prevent you from leaving. At 10 years, you will be making over or close to 100,000/year (includes bonuses). Personally, I would have made 102,000 last year (O-4/14 w flight pay and bonus). The military is betting on the come that you will be so used to a quality of life that you will not want to join the airlines and take a 2/3rds pay cut.
Fifth, the airlines routinely hire over 40. 10 guys in my class were over 40. The oldest was 49. SWA hired BGEN Jimmy Doolittle Jr, USAF at age 58.
Sixth, I didn't appreciate civilian pilots when I came to the airlines but I do now. They have work very hard to get where they are as aviators. They have worked for low pay odd, hours just to get to the airlines. The point being, we are all pilots. Apreciate every one you meet and treat them with respect. Its a small community, don't make a bad name for yourself.
Remember, whether its a 737 or a 777, a bus is a bus is a bus. Warriors are "Haze gray!" Besides, the airline industry will be completely different next year and everything I just expressed will be different. If any one has further questions about the airlines, please ask. Semper Fi! Frumby
Attack Pilot
Major USMC
First, anything you fly will be beneficial. Air sense is air sense. Helo's always present a problem for some carriers but you can always fly for a commuter to build your fixed wing time and then fly for the big boys. American and especially United, do not care what type of aircraft you flew, just that you've got the hours documented. South west will not even consider a helo pilot. It all depends on the company personality and the demands of the industry.
There is also a belief out there that single seat guys are poor in the field of CRM(Cockpit Resource Management). On the contrary, single seat guys are required (at least USMC/USN) to take CRM classes. It is very rare to see a single fighter/attack aircraft take off as a solo. Most flights are in section. The two aircraft combined make a crew and if you do not think CRM is vital between two individual aircraft, think again.
Third, it will take you as long to get flight time in a P-3 as it would in a single seat. Pilot in command time is all you care about because that is what the airlines care about. You have to spend some time as copilot before you can become aircraft commander but in jets, day one you are PIC. Your flight time may not be as great but quality is everything.
Fourth, the military pilot pool has all but dried up. When you sign your contract now, you re commiting yourself to wings + 8 years. That will put most of you at +10 years in service. The military did that to prevent you from leaving. At 10 years, you will be making over or close to 100,000/year (includes bonuses). Personally, I would have made 102,000 last year (O-4/14 w flight pay and bonus). The military is betting on the come that you will be so used to a quality of life that you will not want to join the airlines and take a 2/3rds pay cut.
Fifth, the airlines routinely hire over 40. 10 guys in my class were over 40. The oldest was 49. SWA hired BGEN Jimmy Doolittle Jr, USAF at age 58.
Sixth, I didn't appreciate civilian pilots when I came to the airlines but I do now. They have work very hard to get where they are as aviators. They have worked for low pay odd, hours just to get to the airlines. The point being, we are all pilots. Apreciate every one you meet and treat them with respect. Its a small community, don't make a bad name for yourself.
Remember, whether its a 737 or a 777, a bus is a bus is a bus. Warriors are "Haze gray!" Besides, the airline industry will be completely different next year and everything I just expressed will be different. If any one has further questions about the airlines, please ask. Semper Fi! Frumby
Attack Pilot
Major USMC
quote:Third, it will take you as long to get flight time in a P-3 as it would in a single seat. Pilot in command time is all you care about because that is what the airlines care about. You have to spend some time as copilot before you can become aircraft commander but in jets, day one you are PIC.
That is the truth. I won't see PIC time till the last year of my tour at my squadron, all depends on 1) how fast you qualify 2) meet your hour rqrmts for PPC/PIC 3) and whether or not there are more ppl around out ranking you who can sign for the plane. I guess the figure I have heard is roughly ~1500 hours out of your first tour, don't really know how accurate that is. That is one of the reasons so many pilots go to training (VT) squadrons for that extra PIC time. I know that is next to impossible to find a slot in VT31 or 35.
quote:When you sign your contract now, you re commiting yourself to wings + 8 years. That will put most of you at +10 years in service. The military did that to prevent you from leaving.
I'm just splitting hairs here, but for Props you have a 7 year commitment from Winging, Jets have 8 and for Helos you have 6.
What does this mean to me? Well, probably that I am going to get screwed by Bupers (gee, go figure). Let's do the math.
FRS 7 months
First Squadron Tour 3 years
Follow on tour (instructor VT, VP, whatever) 2.5 years
Whoops, John is 11 months short on his commitment, guess he is going to the BOAT for a disassociated sea tour, woohoo. Personally, I had enough time on a sub that I really don't want to be haze grey and underway, but guess that is in the cards for me. Even if I can extend on my first and second tours, probably won't make up the difference anyways. Not like it really matters, I have 10 years till retirement anyways, so the Navy will still have 3 more years on me after my commitment is up.
I personally am not in all that much of a rush to go the airlines, contrary to my decision to go P3s. I just don't think I would enjoy driving the bus from point A to point B, and explaing to the bean counters why I wasted $6000 worth of fuel here, or was late there, blah blah blah. Frankly, I would be more interested in doing something like Frumby, and other IPs I have met have done. Kept flying, and training students. A couple of LCDRs I flew with in Advanced all stated that they enjoyed flying with us more than at the airlines.
Also, deep down, if I have the chance, I want a shot at command. Plus, if you throw in the 737 as the follow on to the P3, heck, that is just icing on the cake! Just ramblings from a former bubblehead, that still has yet to get to his Fleet squadron and get a clue! Maybe I will switch my tune after my first deployment with a P3 squadron... ah the joy of per diem..
That is the truth. I won't see PIC time till the last year of my tour at my squadron, all depends on 1) how fast you qualify 2) meet your hour rqrmts for PPC/PIC 3) and whether or not there are more ppl around out ranking you who can sign for the plane. I guess the figure I have heard is roughly ~1500 hours out of your first tour, don't really know how accurate that is. That is one of the reasons so many pilots go to training (VT) squadrons for that extra PIC time. I know that is next to impossible to find a slot in VT31 or 35.
quote:When you sign your contract now, you re commiting yourself to wings + 8 years. That will put most of you at +10 years in service. The military did that to prevent you from leaving.
I'm just splitting hairs here, but for Props you have a 7 year commitment from Winging, Jets have 8 and for Helos you have 6.
What does this mean to me? Well, probably that I am going to get screwed by Bupers (gee, go figure). Let's do the math.
FRS 7 months
First Squadron Tour 3 years
Follow on tour (instructor VT, VP, whatever) 2.5 years
Whoops, John is 11 months short on his commitment, guess he is going to the BOAT for a disassociated sea tour, woohoo. Personally, I had enough time on a sub that I really don't want to be haze grey and underway, but guess that is in the cards for me. Even if I can extend on my first and second tours, probably won't make up the difference anyways. Not like it really matters, I have 10 years till retirement anyways, so the Navy will still have 3 more years on me after my commitment is up.
I personally am not in all that much of a rush to go the airlines, contrary to my decision to go P3s. I just don't think I would enjoy driving the bus from point A to point B, and explaing to the bean counters why I wasted $6000 worth of fuel here, or was late there, blah blah blah. Frankly, I would be more interested in doing something like Frumby, and other IPs I have met have done. Kept flying, and training students. A couple of LCDRs I flew with in Advanced all stated that they enjoyed flying with us more than at the airlines.
Also, deep down, if I have the chance, I want a shot at command. Plus, if you throw in the 737 as the follow on to the P3, heck, that is just icing on the cake! Just ramblings from a former bubblehead, that still has yet to get to his Fleet squadron and get a clue! Maybe I will switch my tune after my first deployment with a P3 squadron... ah the joy of per diem..
I'm not the expert by any means, I'm sure Frumby would know a lot more, but from what I've read airlines do hire navigators and they perform pretty much the same functions that they do in the military. As far as the pay, work environment, and number of new hires I'm clueless. I'd suspect it would probably be more beneficial financially to stay in the Navy, not to mention more fun. However, I'd probably check out one of the commercial aviation sites for that stuff.
Frumby, got another question for you...
Will there even be a need for pilots in the next 10 years or so, ie will United, Southwest or the other carriers even be around. Basically, I am asking this with regard to cabotage. Aren't Nippon, Virgin Atlantic, Lufthansa (sp?) and all the rest, lobbying very hard to get the cabotage restrictions lifted, so they can fly anywhere in the US? Guess, I am comparing that to what happened to the US Merchant Marine force, and how between the change in cabotage rulings (and increased demands on the requirements for ships to be certified to carry be registed in the US) literally crippled the US Merchant Fleet. Is history going to repeat itself. I was looking around for an article online about it, thought a couple of years ago Congress came close to giving away cabotage in NAFTA. Well, just curious to hear your thoughts on the matter, since you are in the biz...
For those of you who wonder what crack I am smoking:
Cabotage: A federal law that requires airline passangers and cargo to be carried in U.S. air carriers within the U.S.
Tripp or Frumby probably have a better definition for the term, but that is the best I could do...
Will there even be a need for pilots in the next 10 years or so, ie will United, Southwest or the other carriers even be around. Basically, I am asking this with regard to cabotage. Aren't Nippon, Virgin Atlantic, Lufthansa (sp?) and all the rest, lobbying very hard to get the cabotage restrictions lifted, so they can fly anywhere in the US? Guess, I am comparing that to what happened to the US Merchant Marine force, and how between the change in cabotage rulings (and increased demands on the requirements for ships to be certified to carry be registed in the US) literally crippled the US Merchant Fleet. Is history going to repeat itself. I was looking around for an article online about it, thought a couple of years ago Congress came close to giving away cabotage in NAFTA. Well, just curious to hear your thoughts on the matter, since you are in the biz...
For those of you who wonder what crack I am smoking:
Cabotage: A federal law that requires airline passangers and cargo to be carried in U.S. air carriers within the U.S.
Tripp or Frumby probably have a better definition for the term, but that is the best I could do...
John,
From what I have heard you are right about the cabotage. I might be mistaken but I also heard that a few European countries have loosened up on the cabotage laws already. With the way the industry has been and continues to change I would expect that in ten years there is a good chance you could catch a flight from Hawaii back home on Nippon.
Also, thought you might find this interesting.
In a recent FedEx company letter the new hire section showed about 80% were ex-military or current reserve or guard pilots. About 50% came from heavies, and the rest were from fighters with the exception of one or two helo's.
Jared
From what I have heard you are right about the cabotage. I might be mistaken but I also heard that a few European countries have loosened up on the cabotage laws already. With the way the industry has been and continues to change I would expect that in ten years there is a good chance you could catch a flight from Hawaii back home on Nippon.
Also, thought you might find this interesting.
In a recent FedEx company letter the new hire section showed about 80% were ex-military or current reserve or guard pilots. About 50% came from heavies, and the rest were from fighters with the exception of one or two helo's.
Jared
Here is what I know about Navigators and the airlines. By the time you get out of the military, the majors will probably not have the need for for them. Most FE's now are pilots looking to move up. Many pilots who have been recently hired have been sitting side saddle on the panel for about 6 months until they can step in to the right seat. This is not true with the minors like ATA. (Minor as a passenger carrier but major flying cargo) The truth is, they don't get paid much. I do know a couple of NFO's who couldn't fly military but built there time as CFI's and were able to get out and fly for a major. Alot of time, dedication and money.
Who know's what the future holds for the airlines. Who would have ever believed that Eastern, Pan Am and TWA would be out of buisness. Who would've thought Continnental would have survived 3 Chapter 11's to be a growing powerhouse of an airline. Lastly, who would have believed that a low fare airline would be the number one departure airline in the country as well as the most profitable airline in the WORLD and that it is predicted to be the #1 domestic carrier in the US by 2005. 10 years from now. Who knows. When I was going through flight school (90-92), my IP's couldn't get a job if they tried. Very few could. When I applied, I was hired at American, United, FedEx and Southwest. It's an extremely volatile industry and the next 10 years should prove to be quite interesting.
On the topic of cabbotage. If John McCain has his way, we'll have Air China flying the LA to Vegas route. The airports are already saturated, last thing we need is a bunch of foreign carriers inudating the domestic routes. We can only wait and see.
To all who read this understand one thing: I never dreamed of being an airline pilot but as you get older and family becomes a factor, your values change. I truly miss flying into harms way. All of you are on the pinnacle of the greatest adventure of your lives, forget the crap on the outside. If you want to be an airline pilot before going to military flight school then go to Embrey Riddle or possibly the National Guard. I want Warriors not wannabee airline pilots going to MY USMC/USN flight school. "Kick the tires and light the fires and go hurtle death and destruction at the enemy!" Semper Fi! Frumby
Attack Pilot
Major USMC
Who know's what the future holds for the airlines. Who would have ever believed that Eastern, Pan Am and TWA would be out of buisness. Who would've thought Continnental would have survived 3 Chapter 11's to be a growing powerhouse of an airline. Lastly, who would have believed that a low fare airline would be the number one departure airline in the country as well as the most profitable airline in the WORLD and that it is predicted to be the #1 domestic carrier in the US by 2005. 10 years from now. Who knows. When I was going through flight school (90-92), my IP's couldn't get a job if they tried. Very few could. When I applied, I was hired at American, United, FedEx and Southwest. It's an extremely volatile industry and the next 10 years should prove to be quite interesting.
On the topic of cabbotage. If John McCain has his way, we'll have Air China flying the LA to Vegas route. The airports are already saturated, last thing we need is a bunch of foreign carriers inudating the domestic routes. We can only wait and see.
To all who read this understand one thing: I never dreamed of being an airline pilot but as you get older and family becomes a factor, your values change. I truly miss flying into harms way. All of you are on the pinnacle of the greatest adventure of your lives, forget the crap on the outside. If you want to be an airline pilot before going to military flight school then go to Embrey Riddle or possibly the National Guard. I want Warriors not wannabee airline pilots going to MY USMC/USN flight school. "Kick the tires and light the fires and go hurtle death and destruction at the enemy!" Semper Fi! Frumby
Attack Pilot
Major USMC
quote:For those of you who wonder what crack I am smokingJohn, I don't know, but I've been trying to figure that out for years now!
quote:Warriors are "Haze gray! What Frumby meant to say was that warriors are Haze gray and underway
quote
ersonally, I had enough time on a sub that I really don't want to be haze gray and underway Please refer back to what Frumby MEANT to say
quote:Whoops, John is 11 months short on his commitment, guess he is going to the BOAT for a disassociated sea tour It's not a BOAT, it's a ship. Please refer to it as such. Or I'll refer to the P-3 as a "target".
Edited by - steve wilkins on 04/25/2001 21:00:16
quote:Warriors are "Haze gray! What Frumby meant to say was that warriors are Haze gray and underway
quote
ersonally, I had enough time on a sub that I really don't want to be haze gray and underway Please refer back to what Frumby MEANT to sayquote:Whoops, John is 11 months short on his commitment, guess he is going to the BOAT for a disassociated sea tour It's not a BOAT, it's a ship. Please refer to it as such. Or I'll refer to the P-3 as a "target".
Edited by - steve wilkins on 04/25/2001 21:00:16
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