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P-3 vs EP-3
- Thread starter vv123
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You fill out your dream sheet near the end of Advanaced training, prior to winging. When they have the complete winging group together, and compile the grades, they send the numbers off, and based on your rankings, for example, mine were:
1 Hawaii VP
2 Jacksonville VP
3 Rota VQ
And they rank the class, and go down the list against available billets. Now this isn't an all inclusive statement, but generally, they have slots at each location, just depending on how many. This is how you either go VP (P3) or VQ (EP3).
You get to the FRS, and the VP studs go through a tactical phase that the VQ don't get, and they only stay at the FRS for like 3-4 months, vice our 6-7 months. Now, if you aren't happy with your location, you have one more chance to swap with a classmate. About 3-4 months into training, you select which squadron you go to. Depends how you and your peers want to do it, lets say there are 4 of you going to Hawaii, 1 VP4 slot, 2 VP47 slots, and 1 VP9 slot. Well, no one wants to go to VP47 (jk) so you have the VP4 slot and the VP9 slot being fought over. So, whether you wrestle, flip coins, you guys figure it out, and tell student control who goes where. Then you get your orders. Clear as mud?
I wouldn't say one is more popular than the other. VQ lives more of a det lifestyle, gone for 6-8 weeks (??) back for a bit, then on the road again. VP is switching to a 24 month cycle, deploy 6 months, home for 18 months (the last 6 months of which you are surge eligible, ie deploy early). That and the fact that VQ guys are fags (who loves ya?).
Maybe zab or the other P3 guys on here can fill in what I missed.
John
1 Hawaii VP
2 Jacksonville VP
3 Rota VQ
And they rank the class, and go down the list against available billets. Now this isn't an all inclusive statement, but generally, they have slots at each location, just depending on how many. This is how you either go VP (P3) or VQ (EP3).
You get to the FRS, and the VP studs go through a tactical phase that the VQ don't get, and they only stay at the FRS for like 3-4 months, vice our 6-7 months. Now, if you aren't happy with your location, you have one more chance to swap with a classmate. About 3-4 months into training, you select which squadron you go to. Depends how you and your peers want to do it, lets say there are 4 of you going to Hawaii, 1 VP4 slot, 2 VP47 slots, and 1 VP9 slot. Well, no one wants to go to VP47 (jk) so you have the VP4 slot and the VP9 slot being fought over. So, whether you wrestle, flip coins, you guys figure it out, and tell student control who goes where. Then you get your orders. Clear as mud?
I wouldn't say one is more popular than the other. VQ lives more of a det lifestyle, gone for 6-8 weeks (??) back for a bit, then on the road again. VP is switching to a 24 month cycle, deploy 6 months, home for 18 months (the last 6 months of which you are surge eligible, ie deploy early). That and the fact that VQ guys are fags (who loves ya?).
Maybe zab or the other P3 guys on here can fill in what I missed.
John
>That and the fact that VQ guys are fags (who loves ya?).
I love the fact that this is YOUR website John. Way to hit the nail on the head.
Selection...eh...uh....naw lets just talk about why I picked P-3s...
I don't know about Rota, but Whidbey BLOWS. There, I said it. "Yeah but Seattle is like right there..." No it isn't. It's at least an hour and 20 min away (going 90 mph in a rented Geo Metro when you're already late for your brief...). There are maybe 3 bars in Whidbey (the Blue Dolphin.....shiver....). If you are married and like fishing and.....uh....trees and stuff......then rock out with your c0ck out in Whidbey.
Seriously, though, P-3s, as opposed to EP-3s are a tactical platform (countdown for arguements on that one begins.........NOW). What I mean by that is you will fire/launch weapons, prosecute bad guys, have spec ops dudes onboard...etc etc. Yeah, if being secret-squirrel and into the intel side of things is your cup of tea, then go Aries. It's tough enough flying a pig. At least in the Orion world we get to yank that fOcker around at 200 feet. Few things are as funny as wrapping up a turn at 60 degrees AOB, down low, bomb bays open, BS'ing with your TACCO (NFO) while the brand new guy next to you looks like he just crapped himself.
I could go on and on. I dunno. Flying way high in circles with a tube full of intel dudes would get to me after a while. 2 NFOs are hard enough to deal with (I KEED I KEED.....for me to poop on).
That said, I have to give them credit, they saved our a$$ big-time in a real deal war-time situation once. Good on em.
I love the fact that this is YOUR website John. Way to hit the nail on the head.
Selection...eh...uh....naw lets just talk about why I picked P-3s...
I don't know about Rota, but Whidbey BLOWS. There, I said it. "Yeah but Seattle is like right there..." No it isn't. It's at least an hour and 20 min away (going 90 mph in a rented Geo Metro when you're already late for your brief...). There are maybe 3 bars in Whidbey (the Blue Dolphin.....shiver....). If you are married and like fishing and.....uh....trees and stuff......then rock out with your c0ck out in Whidbey.
Seriously, though, P-3s, as opposed to EP-3s are a tactical platform (countdown for arguements on that one begins.........NOW). What I mean by that is you will fire/launch weapons, prosecute bad guys, have spec ops dudes onboard...etc etc. Yeah, if being secret-squirrel and into the intel side of things is your cup of tea, then go Aries. It's tough enough flying a pig. At least in the Orion world we get to yank that fOcker around at 200 feet. Few things are as funny as wrapping up a turn at 60 degrees AOB, down low, bomb bays open, BS'ing with your TACCO (NFO) while the brand new guy next to you looks like he just crapped himself.
I could go on and on. I dunno. Flying way high in circles with a tube full of intel dudes would get to me after a while. 2 NFOs are hard enough to deal with (I KEED I KEED.....for me to poop on).
That said, I have to give them credit, they saved our a$$ big-time in a real deal war-time situation once. Good on em.
VQ guys are fags? What about those delusions of granduer that you VP guys have about being strike platforms?
First off, the difference between the two communities depends a lot if you are a pilot or an NFO. The pilots in VP have a little more variety in their flying, from hunting subs at 300 ft to flying missions overland Iraq and Afghanistan hunting bad guys. EP-3 pilots do a lot of circles in the sky, and that is about it. On the other hand, EP-3 pilots got on average of 20-30% more flight time than the VP guys when I was in VQ 3 years ago. And every pilot who asked for flying orders in my squadron (EP-3) got some, without exception (they may not have gotten the ones they wanted but they got some). That was definitely not the story with the VP guys who have a lot more community jobs, like ground based tracking and support stations (the simplest explaination I can come up with for TSC's).
For NFO's it is a completely different mission. While the NFO's in VP are more concerned with hunting subs and surveillance missions, the VQ guys have a specific intelligence mission. While it can be boring in the back of an EP-3, I got to see some pretty cool stuff. You are much more involved in the big picture of the overall battle, and your breadth of knowledge of what goes on with the rest of the air war is much greater. P-3 guys have done some pretty cool surveillance missions in support of Spec Ops and ground troops, but I think that may be curtailed soon. The support that they give can be provided for much cheaper, and in some cases more capably (and some not), by UAV's and other platforms.
Due to the recent drawdown in the P-3 fleet, I have heard that there will be a reemphasis on the core missions of ASW and maritime patrol with the overland surveillance and strike missions being curtailed. Someone from VP land can elaborate on that. The MMA is the name of the follow on to the P-3, either a 737 or a new P-3, but VQ is trying to go the business jet route. A few years ago the 2 VQ squadrons were placed under the command of VP wings, a dumb decision. They are completly different missions with only the airframe in common. The P-3 airframe is poorly suited for the VQ mission and a business jet may be the fastest and best solution for VQ.
The deployment cycle for VQ guys depended on the squadron you were in. VQ-1 guys (Pacific) went on det for 8 weeks while the VQ-2 guys were gone for 6 weeks (Atlantic/Med). Both squadrons deployed to the Middle East. You usually went on 7 or 8 deployments when you were in the squadrons for a 3 year tour, spending more time total deployed than the VP guys but spread out a lot more. Things will probably change for VQ-2 because they are probably moving out of Rota in the next year back to the states (location TBD). It is sad because that was really one of the last best deals in the Navy.
One other thing to think about. I have not heard of a VQ guy making flag in recent memory but the VP guys make up something like 15-20% of aviation flag officers in the Navy (too many in my opinion). That may change with the drawdown to the P-3 fleet. In the end, talk to a bunch of guys from both communities and make your decision based on that.
First off, the difference between the two communities depends a lot if you are a pilot or an NFO. The pilots in VP have a little more variety in their flying, from hunting subs at 300 ft to flying missions overland Iraq and Afghanistan hunting bad guys. EP-3 pilots do a lot of circles in the sky, and that is about it. On the other hand, EP-3 pilots got on average of 20-30% more flight time than the VP guys when I was in VQ 3 years ago. And every pilot who asked for flying orders in my squadron (EP-3) got some, without exception (they may not have gotten the ones they wanted but they got some). That was definitely not the story with the VP guys who have a lot more community jobs, like ground based tracking and support stations (the simplest explaination I can come up with for TSC's).
For NFO's it is a completely different mission. While the NFO's in VP are more concerned with hunting subs and surveillance missions, the VQ guys have a specific intelligence mission. While it can be boring in the back of an EP-3, I got to see some pretty cool stuff. You are much more involved in the big picture of the overall battle, and your breadth of knowledge of what goes on with the rest of the air war is much greater. P-3 guys have done some pretty cool surveillance missions in support of Spec Ops and ground troops, but I think that may be curtailed soon. The support that they give can be provided for much cheaper, and in some cases more capably (and some not), by UAV's and other platforms.
Due to the recent drawdown in the P-3 fleet, I have heard that there will be a reemphasis on the core missions of ASW and maritime patrol with the overland surveillance and strike missions being curtailed. Someone from VP land can elaborate on that. The MMA is the name of the follow on to the P-3, either a 737 or a new P-3, but VQ is trying to go the business jet route. A few years ago the 2 VQ squadrons were placed under the command of VP wings, a dumb decision. They are completly different missions with only the airframe in common. The P-3 airframe is poorly suited for the VQ mission and a business jet may be the fastest and best solution for VQ.
The deployment cycle for VQ guys depended on the squadron you were in. VQ-1 guys (Pacific) went on det for 8 weeks while the VQ-2 guys were gone for 6 weeks (Atlantic/Med). Both squadrons deployed to the Middle East. You usually went on 7 or 8 deployments when you were in the squadrons for a 3 year tour, spending more time total deployed than the VP guys but spread out a lot more. Things will probably change for VQ-2 because they are probably moving out of Rota in the next year back to the states (location TBD). It is sad because that was really one of the last best deals in the Navy.
One other thing to think about. I have not heard of a VQ guy making flag in recent memory but the VP guys make up something like 15-20% of aviation flag officers in the Navy (too many in my opinion). That may change with the drawdown to the P-3 fleet. In the end, talk to a bunch of guys from both communities and make your decision based on that.
zab1001 said:
Yeeeaaahh, riiiight. That whole delusion of granduer thing about being a "Strike Platform". Hear that laughter? They are not laughing with you, they are laughing at you. Like I said before, those cool missions are probably going to be curtailed for you VP guys. As for flying at 200 ft, try doing it through a mountain range if you want excitment. I will agree with you about the pilot part, pretty boring drilling holes in the sky.
BTW, shut up and drive stick monkey.
Funny, I thought I ended that post with a huge "thanks VQ" at the end. I knew this was gonna happen.
"VQ guys are fags? What about those delusions of granduer that you VP guys have about being strike platforms?"
I agree. Wholeheartedly. Try not to lump "you VP guys" in on that though (and yes, I see we lumped everyone in with 'VQ guys are fags', apologies). Believe me when I say, we are dumbfounded at being assigned this mission. Hell, my last billet was to coordinate/execute/analyze all squadron "strike ops". Talk about feeling like useless. Luckily I was able to focus the job on an ASUW tip, i.e. anything foward firing, not just land targets. Truth be told, a Harpoon, SLAM-ER, or (grumble) Maverick are all outstanding weapons for the Maritime Navy. I have no desire to try to eyeball a GP bomb with my windshield wiper nut.
"P-3 guys have done some pretty cool surveillance missions in support of Spec Ops and ground troops, but I think that may be curtailed soon. The support that they give can be provided for much cheaper, and in some cases more capably (and some not), by UAV's and other platforms. Due to the recent drawdown in the P-3 fleet, I have heard that there will be a reemphasis on the core missions of ASW and maritime patrol with the overland surveillance and strike missions being curtailed."
Don't count on it. About a month ago the Commandant of the Marine Corps told the CNO he wants as much overland P-3 support as the Navy can muster. CNO turned around and told the VP honchos at the last conference that we are still in the ISR business. The "back to old school ASW" plan is out the window.
Is it cool? Sure. Are we happy about it? Yes and no. Everybody wants to do "cool stuff", but as a result our upgrading Pilots and NFOs are studying for so many different types of missions that they become "Jacks of all Trades, Masters of None".
"As for flying at 200 ft, try doing it through a mountain range if you want excitment."
I guess you waived MOSA.
"This was done in jest if I offended any of you VP types. I love you guys, who else would I have to laugh at when you show up to the club?"
I never saw a VQ guy at the club..., all the VQ guys I knew thought it was cooler to sit outside their BOQ rooms, chain smoke and drink beer.
"BTW, shut up and drive stick monkey"
you know it
"VQ guys are fags? What about those delusions of granduer that you VP guys have about being strike platforms?"
I agree. Wholeheartedly. Try not to lump "you VP guys" in on that though (and yes, I see we lumped everyone in with 'VQ guys are fags', apologies). Believe me when I say, we are dumbfounded at being assigned this mission. Hell, my last billet was to coordinate/execute/analyze all squadron "strike ops". Talk about feeling like useless. Luckily I was able to focus the job on an ASUW tip, i.e. anything foward firing, not just land targets. Truth be told, a Harpoon, SLAM-ER, or (grumble) Maverick are all outstanding weapons for the Maritime Navy. I have no desire to try to eyeball a GP bomb with my windshield wiper nut.
"P-3 guys have done some pretty cool surveillance missions in support of Spec Ops and ground troops, but I think that may be curtailed soon. The support that they give can be provided for much cheaper, and in some cases more capably (and some not), by UAV's and other platforms. Due to the recent drawdown in the P-3 fleet, I have heard that there will be a reemphasis on the core missions of ASW and maritime patrol with the overland surveillance and strike missions being curtailed."
Don't count on it. About a month ago the Commandant of the Marine Corps told the CNO he wants as much overland P-3 support as the Navy can muster. CNO turned around and told the VP honchos at the last conference that we are still in the ISR business. The "back to old school ASW" plan is out the window.
Is it cool? Sure. Are we happy about it? Yes and no. Everybody wants to do "cool stuff", but as a result our upgrading Pilots and NFOs are studying for so many different types of missions that they become "Jacks of all Trades, Masters of None".
"As for flying at 200 ft, try doing it through a mountain range if you want excitment."
I guess you waived MOSA.
"This was done in jest if I offended any of you VP types. I love you guys, who else would I have to laugh at when you show up to the club?"
I never saw a VQ guy at the club..., all the VQ guys I knew thought it was cooler to sit outside their BOQ rooms, chain smoke and drink beer.
"BTW, shut up and drive stick monkey"
you know it
A thoughtful intelligent respnse from a VP pilot, I'm impressed.
Actually, it is nice to hear something other than the braggaing of a JG Nav about how a P-3 is a premier strike platform and spy plane. I did not realize that the overland surveillance mission had not died yet. It is notable that the Marines are the ones asking for it, they are always trying to get as much as they can from as many guys (who can blame them?). They never have enough money for their own toys.
As for the jack of all trades worry, I have heard that from the helo guys repeatedly. I wonder who will hunt subs at the end of the day with the S-3's gone, the helo's chasing down smugglers and druggies and the P-3's supporting the Marines. With the CNO's push to make ASW a priority, it of makes you wonder.....
As for the club, the reason you did not see us their was because:
1-We were flying after stealing one of your engines.
2-We never got out of the room after breaking open a couple of bottles.
3-We were passed out from doing too much of the first two.
And the flying at 200ft, that is only for ridge crossings (so, I embellished), I fly Prowlers now.
Actually, it is nice to hear something other than the braggaing of a JG Nav about how a P-3 is a premier strike platform and spy plane. I did not realize that the overland surveillance mission had not died yet. It is notable that the Marines are the ones asking for it, they are always trying to get as much as they can from as many guys (who can blame them?). They never have enough money for their own toys.
As for the jack of all trades worry, I have heard that from the helo guys repeatedly. I wonder who will hunt subs at the end of the day with the S-3's gone, the helo's chasing down smugglers and druggies and the P-3's supporting the Marines. With the CNO's push to make ASW a priority, it of makes you wonder.....
As for the club, the reason you did not see us their was because:
1-We were flying after stealing one of your engines.
2-We never got out of the room after breaking open a couple of bottles.
3-We were passed out from doing too much of the first two.
And the flying at 200ft, that is only for ridge crossings (so, I embellished), I fly Prowlers now.
The monkey speaks
2. You were doing more in that BOQ room than just having beer, you were probably also "breaking in the Nav".
3. That's alright, while you were passed out, we zapped your plane and van, and piled sandbags (kadena) up outside your door.
Set FIVE, self loading baggage (who loves ya?).... and don't make me get out of the rack to come school ya....
1. So, your maintenance guys stole one of our engines, we made sure we gave you a low efficiency one that is due for maintenance.Flash said:
2. You were doing more in that BOQ room than just having beer, you were probably also "breaking in the Nav".
3. That's alright, while you were passed out, we zapped your plane and van, and piled sandbags (kadena) up outside your door.
I completely agree with Zab, you don't send us in to take out land targets, not what we were designed for. We as a community were looking for a purpose and a mission while the rest of the platforms were abandoning ASW. We have ended up covering so many new areas over the last few years, that it is a nightmare for the upgrader. You also end up with having specialized crews that train to certain missions, it makes maintaining readiness an interesting proposition. And let's not go into ancient ground trainers and simulators that we make do with.
Yes, VP makes up the majority of the selects. I knew ppl that did NOT want to go VQ that ended up being forced there. As always though, you talk to them afterwards, and they adjusted and were happy where they were.
Set FIVE, self loading baggage (who loves ya?).... and don't make me get out of the rack to come school ya....
A confusing time for us, we are spending more time than ever refocusing on ASW and improving that skill set, while we are still requested by various branches to provide ISR functions.
MMA (Multimission Maritime Aircraft) is the follow on to the P3, and is a fully funded program. The decision between airframes, Boeing 737 and Lockheed Orion21 (P3) will be decided ~28May. You will see new aircraft in the Fleet around 2010, first deployer in 2012. P3s and the community will be around for awhile to come.
Touche Webmaster. Set Five, haven't heard that in a long time.
As for the future of the EP-3 community, they are taking part in the Army's Aerial Common Sensor (ACS) program to replace their RC-12's and RC-7's. There are two competing airframes, the Gulfstream G-450 and the Embraer ERJ145 (Brazilian exec jet). Both airframes are better suited for the EP-3 mission. The airframes may make it to the fleet only slightly before the MMA. As a smaller program (for the Navy) it has little bit less of a chance of being delayed or cut though. The future makeup of the community (how many planes squadrons) is a little up in the air, though it would not expand too much. Nothing is certain htough and the Navy could drop out of it tomorrow, like the A-12 or P-7 (or the Crusader or Comanche if you are in the Army).
To school me now, you would have to catch me in my jet powered warpig.
As for the future of the EP-3 community, they are taking part in the Army's Aerial Common Sensor (ACS) program to replace their RC-12's and RC-7's. There are two competing airframes, the Gulfstream G-450 and the Embraer ERJ145 (Brazilian exec jet). Both airframes are better suited for the EP-3 mission. The airframes may make it to the fleet only slightly before the MMA. As a smaller program (for the Navy) it has little bit less of a chance of being delayed or cut though. The future makeup of the community (how many planes squadrons) is a little up in the air, though it would not expand too much. Nothing is certain htough and the Navy could drop out of it tomorrow, like the A-12 or P-7 (or the Crusader or Comanche if you are in the Army).
To school me now, you would have to catch me in my jet powered warpig.
Curiousity from a rotorhead--do you guys ever switch between the two, or are you mostly stovepiped for the rest of your career?
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