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New helo trainer at Rucker?

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
What the hell do people's parents have to do with being taught how to fly a helicopter? Our studs are doing the same as always on stick skills with this ancient POS so I'm going to go with 100% of the blame falls on the training establishment. If you teach guys to fly via automation that's how they'll fly. Growing up with the internet is not the reason.
Totally agree. Too many people in the military bitch about "millennials" (usually people who ARE millennial themselves) as a means to excuse their own failures to motivate their people.

To listen to every old generation, the new generation is always worse. Somehow the world has been in decline since...I don't know...caveman times, yet shit keeps getting done.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
What the hell do people's parents have to do with being taught how to fly a helicopter?
I meant that in response to Rob's students not knowing all the knowledge that he expects them to have, since he mentioned foundational hand flying and FMS/systems management (automation).

People study to gain knowledge for either of two reasons- because they have to and because they want to. The "have to" part comes from what's on the test. The "want to" part, wanting to learn more, has a lot to do with how someone was raised. Here's the funny thing about those dang millennials or get Z or whatever you call twenty-somethings these days- they were raised in a world with lots of standardized testing- which is the education system that their parents' generation built.

Back to the military flight training, that is always about standardized testing too. The schoolhouse keeps mil flight students more than busy enough than for them to be studying extra stuff that's not on the test or graded. The "kids" are going to do what they've always had to do, and that's boresight on the test.

For any shortcomings of the graduates, some cause and blame goes to the raw material walking in the door and the generation that created it. But the finished product and what they know or don't know shouldn't be a surprise, not in the least, and that's why I say most of the blame for shortcomings lies with the schoolhouse.

Makes sense?



This isn't to say the training establishment and its leadership is AFU either; these are just some areas for improvement.
 

croakerfish

Well-Known Member
pilot
I meant that in response to Rob's students not knowing all the knowledge that he expects them to have, since he mentioned foundational hand flying and FMS/systems management (automation).

People study to gain knowledge for either of two reasons- because they have to and because they want to. The "have to" part comes from what's on the test. The "want to" part, wanting to learn more, has a lot to do with how someone was raised. Here's the funny thing about those dang millennials or get Z or whatever you call twenty-somethings these days- they were raised in a world with lots of standardized testing- which is the education system that their parents' generation built.

Back to the military flight training, that is always about standardized testing too. The schoolhouse keeps mil flight students more than busy enough than for them to be studying extra stuff that's not on the test or graded. The "kids" are going to do what they've always had to do, and that's boresight on the test.

For any shortcomings of the graduates, some cause and blame goes to the raw material walking in the door and the generation that created it. But the finished product and what they know or don't know shouldn't be a surprise, not in the least, and that's why I say most of the blame for shortcomings lies with the schoolhouse.

Makes sense?



This isn't to say the training establishment and its leadership is AFU either; these are just some areas for improvement.
This hand-waving "kids these days" generational differences bullshit rankles me. We have some seriously old dudes teaching sims down here, a bunch of fucking Millennials for IPs and the students are Gen Z or whatever and we all somehow manage to make new nuggets "better than we were." The motivators study hard to chase 5's and the tail-gunners get whipped or attrited.

If you are getting a consistent shortcoming in a certain area AFTER you change up the process, it seems pretty obvious that it's not the children who are wrong...
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
This hand-waving "kids these days" generational differences bullshit rankles me.
We're pretty much saying the same thing and I don't like the hand wringing or hand waving either. That's why I called it a leadership issue (even if the phrase is a tired cliché).

There are always generational differences- the crop of young people does some things better and other things worse. Once the "kids" are of age then they bear some of the blame for their shortcomings because that's what grownups have to do, but you're right- when the process doesn't work then the main reason is because the folks in charge of the process haven't done their job to make it work.

(I also think some of the "kids these days'" values that they get faulted for are actually pretty savvy. They watched their parents' generation get downsized after years of loyalty to this-or-that corporation. No wonder the ones who work in the private sector don't want to bust their asses chasing promises of grandeur. Old people tend to forget that young people can always smell B.S.)

What are we talking about again?
 

wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Officer
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I have been on a med leave from the airline. Took a job teaching in a high school "magnet" type aviation program. Small data set, I know. And we can assume that guys that make it to primary military flight training have something on ordinary high schoolers. Then again, some number of my students will be there in 5 or 6 years.

Here is what I have noticed, and was validated by the experienced pros I work with. When I was a student in HS and college, especially HS, it was common for people to ask "why do we need to know this" , "where does this come from" , "what good is this to me", etc. It usually came off as a challange because you didn't want to take it serious or were looking for a way to justify your lack of interest. Making sure you could blow it off. But, we asked. In the process, however, you may have gotten some good answers from the teacher that might have motivated you. Answers that gave you a valuable perspective. Today, most students are not interested in the why or real world applications. They want to know just the answers required to pass the test, data.

I have a class of 22. So far this year, I have gotten maybe ten questions from them relating to why what I am teaching is useful or how it will be applied. I don't think I have ever gotten a question that required amplifying on a subject. On most days they are like baby birds with their mouths open looking to be fed answers, not knowledge. When I engage in classroom discussion they are mostly incapable of relating processes or systems. They can regurgitate the four forces acting on an airplane, but can't process what would happen to a plane when they are not in equilibrium. Having given them that info they are fine, until I make the aircraft a helo. It is like starting all over. Dumb looks. No analysis. No relating previous knowledge to the new problem.

Seems to me HS students want data. Not knowledge. It could be greek to them. Give them enough data to get the grade of their liking, rarely an A, and they shut down there after. My students are very pleasant about it. Good kids. But you can see it. And the grades represent it.

As an aside. My students are shitty internet researchers. They can only scratch the surface. They can code and play games with someone on the other side of the globe. They can find any YouTube video of a car crash or rapper you want. But if you ask them to find out who the CEO of Sipirt Aerospace is you, will get the CEO of Spirit Airlines. Ask them who was the first to fly across the Atlantic and you will get Lindberg all day, even though they have the worldwide web and their finger tips. No sir. These kids are different. Like any other generation they are a product of their environment. It may not be bad. I don't know. But it absolutely is different. And since previous generations had some great qualities, I hate to see all of it lost to whatever it is these kids excel at.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Seems to me HS students want data. Not knowledge. It could be greek to them. Give them enough data to get the grade of their liking, rarely an A, and they shut down there after. My students are very pleasant about it. Good kids. But you can see it. And the grades represent it.
It strikes me that this particular trait isn't new to current HS'ers. At least the data part. I think SNAs and CAT 1s are a little above average on this, but I still would run into many a stud that would collect the data, regurgitate it correctly (or semi-correctly), but not know how to apply it. And that's over the course of the last 15 years (ie, previous generation).

For me, I'd try and run the briefs differently, and if a brief item was an EP (for example), I'd expect them to be able to recite it, but that should only take 30 seconds. The actual brief discussion item would be something system related about the why. Quite often, that's when the lack of actual knowledge would appear. And I'd argue that's a good thing, as that's why I'm there. And hopefully I was able to convey the information well-enough that they walked away with at least some improvement in that knowledge.
 

Notanaviator

Well-Known Member
Seems to me HS students want data. Not knowledge. It could be greek to them. Give them enough data to get the grade of their liking, rarely an A, and they shut down there after. My students are very pleasant about it. Good kids. But you can see it. And the grades represent it.

As an aside. My students are shitty internet researchers. They can only scratch the surface. They can code and play games with someone on the other side of the globe. They can find any YouTube video of a car crash or rapper you want. But if you ask them to find out who the CEO of Sipirt Aerospace is you, will get the CEO of Spirit Airlines. Ask them who was the first to fly across the Atlantic and you will get Lindberg all day, even though they have the worldwide web and their finger tips. No sir. These kids are different. Like any other generation they are a product of their environment. It may not be bad. I don't know. But it absolutely is different. And since previous generations had some great qualities, I hate to see all of it lost to whatever it is these kids excel at.
Wink, these two bits are particularly interesting to me - especially the data v knowledge piece. It occurs to me that a lot of their world today is the ability to instantaneously track down 'the answer' as opposed to being equipped with the tools to find, parse, and interpret the things necessary to determine 'the answer' probably is part of the cause that results in folks not being capable of the critical thinking piece that is a huge gap you point out.

Whether it's math/science and the ability to plug data in to software/machine and get the correct answer but not why that answer is correct (or how the software came to it), or humanities (or current events) where folks can tap into all sorts of analysis done by others but not need to interrogate primary sources or their angles, I think that's something that's lacking across the board.
 

ChuckMK23

Instructor, Flight.
pilot
You should start your own Military Defense blog.
Interesting to hear the the T-6/JPATS was not held in high regard - I've had AF dudes tell me the opposite.

I'll pose the opposite question - what were the shortcomings that permitted the T-6 to be selected? Or did the AF simply push it in place over concerns by NAVAIR/CNATRA ? AND do you guys think the lessons learned are in place from T-6/JPATS to prevent a similar outcome from happening with TH-XX/AHTS?
 
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ChuckMK23

Instructor, Flight.
pilot
About half of the noobs reach for the flight director knobs as the aircraft is going through translational lift. Then they are surprised when the FD fails. They hand fly the aircraft to an attitude that will not reliably continue the acceleration past *50 kts and try to couple to an airspeed. When the nose pitches up due to blow back and the airspeed passes 50 kts and then decelerates below 48 kts, the flight director fails.
Having flown a FD equipped helo this shocks me that the pilot flying is not simply flying raw data below say 70-80 knots firmly established in a climb. To chase pointers when all you are trying to do is get away from the ground, get to a stable instrument flying airspeed and turn to a heading and climb to an initial altitude. The FD/FMS is not adding SA or value at this point... "children of the magenta line" indeed!
 

ChuckMK23

Instructor, Flight.
pilot

“The Navy doesn’t do any overwater training; it’s mostly over land. If you look at the aircraft the Navy does undergraduate training with now, it’s the single-engined T-45, the single-engined TH-57, the single-engined T-6, and the most-expensive jet on the planet, [the F-35]… is a single-engined aircraft,” he says. “I think they see the benefit in keeping it simple.”
 

Pags

Pope of Chili Town
pilot
A t34 crew in new orleans begs to differ. Although, another engine wouldnt have prevented that. I never felt unsafe flying the 57 around pensacola but i did brief emergency bridge landings atleast once.
Single engine helo around all those pine forests? Ugh.
 

thosefreakinATs

insert witty comment here
pilot
Single engine helo around all those pine forests? Ugh.
no shortage of backwoods fields. just dont PEL into the ones with rusty trailers. them there good ol boys tend to not take kindly to our types round there. you may comeback with an extra ventilation.
 

Pags

Pope of Chili Town
pilot
no shortage of backwoods fields. just dont PEL into the ones with rusty trailers. them there good ol boys tend to not take kindly to our types round there. you may comeback with an extra ventilation.
Have to make it to a field. At least one crew didn't.
 
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