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Navy FACs in 'Nam?

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RockyRaab

Member
First post. I signed up here to ask this...

I'm a former USAF FAC with 300 combat missions in 'Nam. I'm currently helping a guy write a book based roughly on the old JAG TV show. He needs to know if there were any Navy FACs in Vietnam, and if so where they trained, what type missions they flew, in what aircraft, and who they worked/controlled. I can't recall training with or working with any Navy FACs while in 'Nam. Nor can I recall any exchange program in which Navy pilots trained with us AF types.

But I'm hoping someone here can correct my memories with details. Thanks in advance.
 
Brett327

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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Super Moderator
Contributor
My bet is that nobody here will have detailed knowledges about that topic. Consult a historian.
 
insanebikerboy

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
Have you reached out to any of the HAL-3 Seawolves? Considering the types of missions they flew it’s quite possible some of them were operating in the FAC role.

www.seawolf.org
 
Pugs

Pugs

Back from the range
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Brett327 said:
My bet is that nobody here will have detailed knowledges about that topic. Consult a historian.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand most of the old folks with context of Naval Air history were driven away from here. I've of course reached out to Rick Morgan as well - http://www.rickmorganbooks.com/index.html. Rick was my mission commander first tour and well regarded historian and Naval Air author.
 
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RockyRaab

Member
My problem is that my own FAC role was so classified and compartmented that I know very little about what happened in the rest in the war. My lower left corner of the Big Picture was about one pixel in size. I'm familiar with some other Air Force FAC roles - but mostly from reading. Nothing else. This thread is the first I've ever heard of your HAL-3 Seawolves, for example. Posting here is the only way of "reaching out" I could conjure up. Besides talking to Pugs, that is.

Anyway, I'll stay tuned here in case some helpful jock turns up. I suspect, though, that my initial impressions are correct - there were no actual Navy FACs.
 
Griz882

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
The US Navy had only one land based fixed wing attack squadron throughout the Vietnam War. The “Black Ponies” of Light Attack Squadron 4 (VAL
4) were technically a close air support squadron designed to protect brown water (riverine) forces and SEAL commando teams operating throughout the Mekong Delta. Even though CAS was their primary mission, the squadron assumed the mission of airborne forward air control soon after operations began in March of 1969, controlling CAS sorties and adjusting naval gunfire and artillery strikes from all services. They operated from two detachments located at Binh Thuy and Vung Tau.

The squadron was part of Zumwalt's “Sea Lords”, or South East Asia Lake, Oceans, River, and Delta Strategy, designed a broad campaign initiated in November 1968 to stop Vietcong infiltration into South Vietnam from the riverways leading out of Cambodia. US and ARVN forces needed the supply routes cut off if they were to regain the countryside from the Vietcong. VAL-4 and their brethren attack helicopter squadron HAL-3, were the primary naval air assets stood up to fill the gap of providing time critical CAS for U.S Navy, Army, and ARVN forces in the Delta.

Overall, the squadron had an interesting history. VAL-4 was commissioned on January 3, 1969 at Naval Air Station North Island, near San Diego, California, borrowing OV-10A Broncos from the Marine Corps. BUPERS believed they would have a hard time finding pilots for the unorthodox job. The assignment would take veteran aircrew from their own stable warfare (sound familiar?) communities into an unknown world not typical to the Navy. Most of the pilots came from the S-2 community with a healthy number of A-1 pilots signing on. Overall, the experiment was a moderate success especially when one considers the addition of HAL-3.

The deeper gold wing history is with the Marines of VMO-2 and HMM-362 (O-1 Bird Dogs, later Huey's and OV-10's) who flew the "Klondike Playboy" missions and the "Cat Killers" of the Army's 220th Reconnaissance Company who supported the Marines and Navy big-gun ships.
 
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RockyRaab

Member
So far, I believe that a fair summary would be that the Navy had a small fixed-wing attack role, and may have directed some ground/naval artillery, but neither fit the accepted concept of a FAC. (No disparagement intended, please note. They did a helluva job.) Only Air Force FACs could employ fighter airpower, however.

Agree?
 
Pugs

Pugs

Back from the range
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If we're talking the definition of a FAC being the directing of weapons from airborne in direct support of troops by other aircraft as a formalized role I suspect you are right - See my note on the other board. I will also reach out to Barrett Tillman and that crowd.

Good article here that indicates that UH-1 may have been used by the Marines but that would have certainly been out of necessity vice a formalized role.

 
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RockyRaab

Member
I do not eliminate the ground FAC in my definition, but otherwise I go along with the coordination and directing of aerial assets against targets as the FAC role. As Pugs and I have discussed elsewhere, the slow FAC is now an extinct occupation. But ground-based and fast FACs are still very much in need and use.
 
Griz882

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
insanebikerboy said:
Pretty sure the Marines still use the H-1 in a FAC role.
Click to expand...
To the best of my knowledge they still do. In 1966, Marines pioneered the concept of the "Fast FAC," utilizing two seat F9F Panther jet aircraft to reach deep targets on the Ho Chi Minh Trail and further up north. These aircrew managed interdiction missions and CAS flights working for SF and recon guys way far north in areas that Slow FAC could not reach. I believe they replaced the Panther with the OA-4 in 1969. The first Fast FAC SOP was developed by H&MS-11 (now MALS-11). Jumping ahead to the present (to be more accurate, a few years back) I can note that the SOC community won't use (USAF) single-seat Fast FAC unless a JTAC who has completed the Special Operations Terminal Attack Control Course is on the ground. The 160th uses AH-6 Littlebird's in the FAC role and I hear the USAF utilizes their AC-130's in this role as well.
 
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