Marine CAG or at least DCAG?

[Max the Mad Russian]

Gents,


You already have the first RW-community CAG in CVW-1, Capt Barr. As had been written on USNI site, from 1994 to 2015 there were 175 CAGs assigned, and only 19 of them were NOT from VFA crowd. Now you have first helo guy in this command and it wouldn't be a wonder if in the future the CAG can be somebody who's CMV-22 driver. AFAIK, ANY 1310/1320 can be assigned CAG, at least in theory. What about Marines? They are the same NAs flying same Hornets. In Royal Navy practice, rough equivalent of the CAG, namely Commander (Air) or "Wings", though formally being a member of the carrier's company, could (and have been sometimes) Royal Marine aviator. Is that possible in USN for USMC pilot with carrier experience become a member of the CAG staff or CAG in itself?
AFAIR, on one of Essex-class carriers in 1945 there was Marine CAG, simply being LtCol as VMF skipper and thus the senior NA so he had been officially assigned CAG. But what now?



Thanks

 

[BarryD]

They used to have one Marine CAG at any given time (or so I’ve read somewhere). Going even further back, I think there may have been multiple Marine CAGs (when there was more CAGs).

The practice appears to be extinct now.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

The practice appears to be extinct now.

Thanks a lot. During Korea War there were CVEs there with just Marines squadrons deployed, with no Navy aircraft embarked. In those cases to have Marine CAG assigned there was wise I'm sure

 

[ea6bflyr]

Thanks a lot. During Korea War there were CVEs there with just Marines squadrons deployed, with no Navy aircraft embarked. In those cases to have Marine CAG assigned there was wise I'm sure

The USMC supports Carrier Air Wings with Marine squadrons and Marine & Air Force augments, but AFIAK there are no Marines on CVW (CAG) Staff nor as the CAG/DCAG. Those are Navy billets.

Yes, Marine squadrons deploy from Amphibious ships but it's under the MAGTF construct and it's different than the Navy's construct. The MEF, MEB, MEU, and sometimes SPMAGTF have a air component called the ACE that works for the MEF/MEB/MEU commander in support of Marine operations. They do not call their ACE Commander CAG. (The C stands for CARRIER).

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

They do not call their ACE Commander CAG

But he is always a Marine NA, right?

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Those are Navy billets.

Jesus, indeed: 1310/1320 are Navy designators, not Marines MOSs. Thanks for reminder.

 

[Pags]

But he is always a Marine NA, right?

Yes. Usually the VMM CO.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Usually the VMM CO.

Thanks again. And this VMM skipper receives detachments from the other Marine (and Navy HSL probably) squadrons, including VMA Boat Det, under his command, am I right? So typical helo guy acts as CAG for mostly helo crowd embarked on LHA but a small STOVL FW bunch included, too... Then why Navy had waited so long to allow the RW people to become CAG?

 

[BarryD]

Then why Navy had waited so long to allow the RW people to become CAG?

Institutional inertia is probably a big part.

Give that a go, good read:

So you want to be a CAG (but can't)...

Here's a new random stupid question I haven't found an answer for. (ie. my Google-fu is lacking in proficiency) I know the CVNs are very fixed-wing centric, and rightfully-so. What's a vague ratio of fixed-wing -to - helicopter pilots becoming CVN CO's? I would assume most sea command-oriented...

www.airwarriors.com

 

[Pags]

Thanks again. And this VMM skipper receives detachments from the other Marine (and Navy HSL probably) squadrons, including VMA Boat Det, under his command, am I right? So typical helo guy acts as CAG for mostly helo crowd embarked on LHA but a small STOVL FW bunch included, too... Then why Navy had waited so long to allow the RW people to become CAG?

No USN HSL is part of the VMM. In a standard MEU the core VMM is supplemented by HMLA, HMH, and VMA to become a reinforced VMM, or VMM(REIN). The VMM(REIN) CO is responsible to the MEU CO for executing the aircraft parts of the MEU's mission.

HSC provided MH-60Ss are assigned to the LHD and report to the LHD's Captain. The USN H-60s are not in the USMC chain of command and work for the ship.

A USN RW CAG is out of the norm because the primary striking arm of the CVW is the Hornet.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

The USN H-60s are not in the USMC chain of command and work for the ship.

Thanks, this is possibly the rare exclusion when there are two aviation command chains on one ship.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

HSC provided MH-60Ss are assigned to the LHD and report to the LHD's Captain

And s/he may be 1110 SWO, right? Is it a law that LHD's XO in this case should be 1310/1320, and vice versa?

 

[Pags]

And s/he may be 1110 SWO, right? Is it a law that LHD's XO in this case should be 1310/1320, and vice versa?

Yeah, I can't remember if it's a law but the practice is to rotate the command of an LHD/A between SWO and aviation.

Plus, the HSC DET really only reports to the captain administratively. Operationally the HSC DET works with the Air Boss to provide SAR to the daily air plan. Back when I was a Mini the HSC community was looking at ways to do other things in addition to SAR, not sure how thats changed in 6yrs.

 

[Jim123]

Same as what Pags just said about the LHA/LHD CO and XO mix, but I'm pretty sure at least one of them has to be an aviator. At least one also ought to be a SWO too, but I can't remember if this is a hard and fast rule or not.

Pretty sure the COD dets used to report to the carrier CO many years ago and similarly, the HSL dets always reported to the ship CO.

The "REIN" (reinforced) squadron concept is interesting. You take elements from several squadrons and you put one in charge of all of them, rather than having a separate command element. Something that people seem to forget about the aviation element in a MEU is that it is not an air wing. It's smaller and it's designed for a different purpose than a carrier air wing.

The air element doctrine is mostly about supporting the effort on the beachhead and having enough stuff to be be self-sufficient for a short time (for 30 days in the case of a MEU). The air wing is supposed to blow up the bad guys' stuff up to hundreds of miles away from the ship- and be capable of doing all the secondary things that are directly necessary for that to happen.

But again, the aviation element of a MEU is not an air wing... it's different.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Give that a go, good read:

Thanks a lot, from there I found out that USMC Col Dour "Smash" Yurovich had already been a CVW-9 CAG at 2005-6 but it is doubtful that Wing was deployed on a carrier during his tenure. Nevertheless, this is the answer - a Hook Marine (Yurovich flown F-4 and F/A-18) could be and have been a CAG. He didn't make a flag and retired right after this tour, but this is an answer. Thank you very much.

Interestingly, is there a theme that still WASN'T discussed within AW forums??