Long Post, In-Depth Question

[flyguy]

Hi to all, I just want to let you know this is going to be my first long post and then I'm sure I will follow with a lot of other questions. I have been checking this forum out for awhile and you guys have some good stuff to say. I am strongly considering the Air Force and Marines for aviation and I pretty much have the Air Force side answered being my dad did 30 years, brother got picked up for a 16 guard unit, and I have 4 years of AFROTC (which actually doesnt mean much).
My main question for now is, how is the quality of life in the Marines. Now I know some want to write back with chair force stuff but that's not what I'm looking for. I already know the Marines are badass, and the AF doesn't touch you guys when it comes to toughness. But I also know that the AF doesn't have to because the missions are different as a whole. I really think that the AF and Marines are the best of the branches because for one, I've been around the Air Force my whole life, and at one time I have never met a Marine who did not like the Marines, untill yesterday. I was told to stay away from the Marines if I was going to enlist because they don't care about the enlisted, but as an officer I should be ok. Granted this guy just got back from Iraq so he might be shook up, but I have never heard that before, and I am for sure not going to let one persons opinion effect my decision. As far as the Army, I can say that I have almost never heard someone who has been in the Army say pick the Army over Air Force (except a recruiter ofcourse). Same thing for the Navy, most people I have talked to have said plain out that Air Force treats you better *side note Best friend from High School in Navy wants to get out and get in Air Force, ROTC buddy's dad Lt. Com, who flew in the Navy told him to go Air Force.
Some of the things I want to know is, how are the bases, how are you guys treated, and how is the family life ?
Not to be well my daddy said, but he said that the Marines are treated a little different because when something breaks out, the first question asked is where are the Marines, and when we want you guys going in we don't want soft we want hard. I talked to a 16 Air National Guard pilot who was a hornet driver for 13 years and he said he liked it but the AF treats you better, and my Instrument flight instructor was a NAV in the Marines for like 9 years, and he said he liked it but in the Marines you are always underpaid ( not sure if that means slow promotion), overlooked, and not treated the best. He says looking back now he would really consider the Air Force. Con't

 

[flyguy]

Continued

Sorry this says reply, it's a continuation of the first post.
Hope it doesn't sound like I was trying to name everything I heard of as negative because obviously I have heard plenty of positives.
Both my parents and Brother *(Remember brother/father both Air Force) have said I fit the Marines better.
16 dude who flew 18's said Marines are the tip of the spear and all aviation is tactical.
Col from AFROTC said during all of his past joint Military classes the Marines by far were the smartest ( He didn't just tell me this, but all of the Seniors)
And ofcourse just seeing a Marine. A Marine doesn't have to tell you what he does, there is a quiet respect you guys earn.
Before someone says, since I question the Marines so much why don't I go join the Air Force. The reason being I really don't much about the Marines except what I pick jp from this forum, TV, and the bits and pieces I pick up from the people I stated.
About me, first I know that whichever way I go, I will be an Officer first, then a pilot if I get picked up for a slot. The Officer part comes first, which it should.
Now, one of the biggest reasons I'm having problems choosing (it may sound crazy to you guys) is OCS training and TBS. I really feel that learning to be a ground guy first is important. The PT and the little cadet led summer camp in the Air Force doesn't cut it for me. For an Officer to go through the training you guys have to first go through is what I believe every Officer in the Miltary should go threw. I went on a 2 joint FTX with our local Army detachment and loved what I learned with the day and night Nav, and different attack and recon info. Our new Col came in and pulled the AF from the FTX because he said the FTX has no value for Air Force training, which may be technically correct but it just rubbed me the wrong way. I ofcourse know that if I get to go to OCS and TBS after they start I will be happy when they are over, but it just seems I will be such a better officer and Pilot by having that experience. Am I putting too much into this ?
The reason why the quality of life question is asked is because I'm married with children, and I have to think of them when I make the decison. I know the AF puts a lot in quality of life and family, but is there a big difference ? I have never been to a Marine/Navy base except the one in Ft. Worth for a Air Show so I don't know how they look. Ofcourse the Marines is much more about what you do, instead of where you live, but when you compare an AF and Army base it is clear which is better.
Thanks for reading this long post, future ones won't be as long. I would like info from all fields because I might never get pilot slot or health problems may arise later, and being an Officer comes first. Thanks

 

[KBayDog]

I have never met a Marine who did not like the Marines, untill yesterday. I was told to stay away from the Marines if I was going to enlist because they don't care about the enlisted, but as an officer I should be ok.

Whoever said that should get a swift kick in the nuts. The enlisted Marine - the Rifleman - is the sole reason the Corps exists. The reason we have officers (ESPECIALLY aviators) is to support the Marine rifleman. I could go on for hours about it (especially since I was enlisted), but I will leave it at this: The Corps could do just as well without officers as with.

Now, as far as "quality of life," if you want nice houses, golf courses, BXs, etc., go Air Farce.

If you want to be a Marine, go Marine.

'Nuff said.

 

[flyguy]

Dog, Thanks for the quick response. By the way I know the enlisted in every service is the backbone. I know that as a new officer in any service I know nothing and must learn, and earn the respect. I feel Officers actually work for the enlisted. I think it's strange in some services the only difference between Officers and Enlisted is a degree(whole other topic). However, I actually want you to go more into quality of life then bases (I hope my post asked for more). Not looking for anyone to talk me into going into the Marines, but I am looking for more experiences then just If you want to be a Marine, go Marine.
Thanks

 

[flyguy]

Clarify Quality of Life

Me again, After re-reading my post I wanted to clarify my question on Quality of Life. I also want to know about quality of life during the career. The questions I'm kinda focused on are -

How long is the normal deployment rotation (TDY), how often do you go out on the ship, how does getting a Post-Bachelor Eduation work, do you get 2 hours for lunch if 1 hour is for PT, are there many reserve flying units to fly for when active duty time is up, how often or does someone have to become a FAC. It's questions like these that I would also like to know.
Sorry for asking so many questions but I figure that's what these forums are for. I appreiciate your responses, and you guys can PM me if there become to many replies. Thanks

 

[KBayDog]

No problem, and thanks for not being "that guy," who asks the same old questions as if he were the first to ask them.

Right now the deployment cycle is a little jacked. If I am right (and, please, somebody correct me if I am not) the grunts are going 7 months deployed, 7 months home. Of course, deployments depend on what unit you are assigned to, etc. The fact remains that Marines are forward-deployed, during peacetime and war. We have to be.

There are numerous post-undergraduate education programs out there; you just have to look for them. Most come with obligated service afterwards. Also, don't expect to spend your entire career in school - remember that the Corps is investing its time and money into your education, and it wants a sound return on that investment. You should find time for off-duty education, but again, don't expect to be given all kinds of leniency when it comes to school. The Corps comes first.

Chow is continuous. In garrison, enlisted Marines usually get 1.5 hours for chow (1130-1300), dependent on the unit/mission. I have never seen a set "chow time" for officers, and PT is definitely on you - they are those things that you are expected to handle on your own.

The 4th MAW contains our reserve squadrons. I don't know what is "many" to you, so I'll just send you to http://www.mfr.usmc.mil/4thmaw/

Finally, someone else will have to tell you about FAC tours. I am a little to new to the aviation pipeline to have any working knowledge of the FAC life.

The Marine Corps has two different, yet complimentary, views on QOL. While other services put much time and money into infrastructure, recreation, etc., the main view the Corps has is that QOL (and troop welfare) is "tough, realistic training." In other words, making sure your Marines are so well trained that they can go into harms way on little notice, get the mission accomplished, and come home together. The other view is that QOL (and troop welfare - I hope you can see that the two are often synonymous) means making sure that a Marines personal issues are taken care of - such as his/her family, finances, administration, etc. - so that the Marine can focus 100% on the mission when the time comes.

I will not sugar-coat it - the Marine Corps is hard work. While other services may go home and shed the uniform after hours, you are a Marine 24/7, and will be held accountable as such. The hours are long, the deployments are many, the work is always there. But the rewards are many.

I wish I could give you more tangible QOL bullets, but the QOL of being a Marine lies in the intangibles . I won't play recruiter, but the Corps is a fraternity whose bonds are forged in shared suffering, whether that suffering be at a recruit depot, OCS, TBS, deployment, firefight, etc.

If you were to ask me why I enlisted so many years ago, I would not be able to give you an answer other than "it just felt right." The same thing with re-enlisting, pursuing a commission, pursuing a flight career - everything just seemed to fall into place, like some natural progression. And, though I have downright hated a lot of things I have had to do, I have loved every single minute of it. Make sense?

Alright, off the soapbox. Back to studying.

 

[HueyCobra8151]

I have never met a Marine who did not like the Marines, untill yesterday. I was told to stay away from the Marines if I was going to enlist because they don't care about the enlisted, but as an officer I should be ok. Granted this guy just got back from Iraq so he might be shook up, but I have never heard that before, and I am for sure not going to let one persons opinion effect my decision.

I hate to burst your bubble, but I thought I would throw in $.02 in addition to what KBayDog said.

This may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone in the Marine Corps loves their job. There are those people who hate being in the Corps. It is a lot of hard work with long hours and tough restrictions.

If you enlist, you will put up with bullsh*t, there will be times you are in your room buffing your deck at all hours of the night so that in the morning someone can come in, look over it for 2 seconds, and pronounce it "acceptable." When this is finished, you will probably be frustrated.

But the funny thing is, you hardly remember the bulls**t. You remember the friends you have for life (friends who would take a bullet for you - and you for them). You remember the good times.

When I was in Yuma, I remember that I absolutely hated my unit. Looking back though, I don't really remember why. All I remember is the good times. Playing pranks on my buds and getting to fly around the Colorado River in the back seat of a Huey. Stuff like that. And I remember having a job with a lot of responsibility. When I was 19, I was a Plane Captain; meaning I signed off aircraft as being safe for flight. If I messed something up, someone could die.

Bottom Line (in my opinion): You forget all the stuff you hated, and in the end, the good outweighs the bad by a lot.

Chow is continuous. In garrison, enlisted Marines usually get 1.5 hours for chow (1130-1300), dependent on the unit/mission.

I thought you were a winger, Sir. I wish I was in your squadron, we were on the "eat and come back" plan at mine.

One other thing to think about, flyguy, is that the Marine Corps has a different perspective on Quality of Life than the other branches.

It is drilled into you from Day 1 at BootCamp (OCS too? I don't know), that Troop Welfare is second to Mission Accomplishment.

What does that mean? It means, if you are unhappy accomplishing the mission, suck it up and carry on. It means the Corps WILL accomplish the mission, and then if there are resources available after that, provide for morale and welfare. Something to consider.

 

[KBayDog]

I thought you were a winger, Sir. I wish I was in your squadron, we were on the "eat and come back" plan at mine.

At ease, Ranger. :icon_wink Tell me that your CONAD, medical, dental, or any other "service" you were required to take care of on your own time was ever open between 1130 and 1300?

I rest my case. :icon_tong

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Yeah, those guys always got 2 hour chow breaks.

I remember times I rushed off the flightline to get some paperwork done at admin at 1615, still having a solid 3-4 hours left of work to do, only to find that they had "gone home early for the day."

Should have been an 01.

 

[motv8r]

flyguy,

huey and kbay made some real good points and they covered just about everything. i have been in the Corps a little over 10 years now. i am married with two children. i believe you answered your own question whether or not to consider AF or Marines. The answer lies in your devotion to your family. Your main concern should be them and how they are going to deal with either service. It has been my experience that the Corps demands more of its families than it does of its Marines. You don't join the Corps looking for the best quality of life. As an enlisted Marine you can expect to work hard and as an officer you can expect work even harder. The mission always comes first and troop welfare follows as close as the mission allows. I have watched many Marines retire and the first person they thank is their wife or husband.

If its quality of life you are looking for, join the Air Force. I have a lot of zoomie friends and they are happy. The AF makes sure their airmen are always living according to AF standards. Whether its chow, housing or time with the family, the AF will make sure you are living good and spending enough time with the kids. That is the AF in short.

If you want to be a Marine, you better make sure your wife and family wants you to be a Marine. She actually has to be more gung ho than you! Just remember your priorities and I am sure you will make the right decision.

Semper Fidelis

 

[Taxman2A]

Right now the deployment cycle is a little jacked. If I am right (and, please, somebody correct me if I am not) the grunts are going 7 months deployed, 7 months home. Of course, deployments depend on what unit you are assigned to, etc. The fact remains that Marines are forward-deployed, during peacetime and war. We have to be.

My unit is currently doing 5 months stateside, 7 months sandside.

 

[KBayDog]

My unit is currently doing 5 months stateside, 7 months sandside.

That suck-diddly-ucks. Sorry to hear the tempo is so high.

 

[flyguy]

Thanks

Hey guys, thanks a lot for the answers, they certainly give me something to think about. From what I gather, being a Marine will be what I make out of it. I know the corps will not revolve around my a$$ and I dont expect or want them to. Don't take for granted the time I get to spend with my family because I will miss an anniversary, b-days, and even Christmas. However when I'm gone it will be with family.
I know there is the comaderie you guys have for life that no one else understands and that may be what I'm looking for. I'm not thinking about joining because of a lack of friends because I have had many, but it's different when you've been through something and only the other guy your drinking a beer with knows where your coming from. Once again thanks for your responses, I will think about everything you guys have said and ask questions accordingly.

 

[TransAmatt]

I did AFROTC for a year and ahalf before I realized it was not what I wanted. The primary reason I left was becouse the training I was recieving was not going to prepare me to be the officer I wanted to be. We spent almost every other week relearning guideon procedures. I wanted a chance to practice my leadership skills and that never really happened. If you have not already, take a tour of an AFB with your det. When I did it opened my eyes to what being an officer was like in the Air Force.

Other reasons I switched were becouse I wanted to have more contact with enlisted men and a chance to lead (and not just other pilots). I also have a few enlisted friends from high school in the Marines who I still talk to. Their professionalism after becoming Marines made me realize that these are the kind men I was to be around and lead. I am currently applying and hopefully headed to PLC jr's this summer.

You said you have had 4 years of ROTC, are you expected to commision in May? If so you might want to discuss these concerns with your CoC or commander if you are close enough to them and are seriously considering switching services. You will also need to see how your scholarship and contract with the Air Force works if you leave.

If you have any question I might be able to answer shoot me an e-mail,
Matt

 

[flyguy]

thanks

Matt, Thanks for the response. I know exactly what you are talking about when it comes to the training you get in AFROTC. As far as me getting out, I actually have it set. I never contracted with ROTC and was in on special student status for all 4 years but allowed to take part in all activities. If I was going to commision I would go through OTS. I never knew about the PLC program for the Marines untill I talked to a recruiter before my Senior year. I always thought it was NROTC (which my school doesn't have), the Academy, or OCS which is what I'm looking at now. I have received some great answers from all those that posted and I'm still thinking hard about my options. I think I'm going to start busting my a$s with PT (Ok now you guys can start with the Chair Force), study for the ASTB, and start talking with the Marine Officer recruiter. I wanted to get some advice from people on the forum before going down and wasting a recruiters time. Thanks