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Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
It’s happened before.

My $0.02, with the Tyndall F-22 disaster, the military has too much red tape and rules that some enterprising O4 couldn’t take the initiative to take a GPC, rent a bunch of flatbed trailers, hitch up the jets, find a few truck drivers/ jet maintainers to go along, and convoy them to Warner Robins or somewhere outside the hurricane zone. So the jets were left in place at a damage cost of X amount. The culture doesn’t allow for outside the box thinking and rule bending.
No offense intended, but just the image of this made me burst out laughing. F-22s retail for $350 million per plane and have all sorts of super secret technology, and you're saying you'd just toss them up onto some flat beds and take them out among the general public? You'd be moving literally billions of dollars worth of equipment with less than a dozen planes.

That's kinda like saying you need to move some nukes, so you rented some U-Hauls and just threw them in the back:)
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
No offense intended, but just the image of this made me burst out laughing. F-22s retail for $350 million per plane and have all sorts of super secret technology, and you're saying you'd just toss them up onto some flat beds and take them out among the general public? You'd be moving literally billions of dollars worth of equipment with less than a dozen planes.

That's kinda like saying you need to move some nukes, so you rented some U-Hauls and just threw them in the back:)
Tracking. You can condescend all you want, but the facts are: Tyndall was left unguarded, the storm could have been way worse, and their only plan was hope for the best.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
Tracking. You can condescend all you want, but the facts are: Tyndall was left unguarded, the storm could have been way worse, and their only plan was hope for the best.
Not trying to be condescending. It just struck me funny is all. I think it was an oversimplified idea, but not that you are stupid or anything (nor myself smart).
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
What you describe is a recipe for a disaster far worse than what happened at Tyndall.

F-22's aren't some used Hondas you can just throw on a car transporter a U-Haul trailer you can just hitch up to your truck, they require specialized handling equipment not just to transport long distances over land but it also takes significant planning and support as well. That includes everything from route planning to ensure they can physically fit along the route without hitting every telephone pole, stoplight and overpass along the way to pretty strict physical security requirements needed 24/7 for every single jet along with making sure the transport doesn't run out of gas to rest requirements for the personnel.

For all the lamentations about red tape and rules there is ample good reason for them in cases like this, so you don't have some bright idea fairies wrecking an F-22 in a ditch on I-65N while trying to get around all the other hurricane evacuees followed by folks taking Raptor souvenirs that end up on eBay 7 hours later.

By far the two best options for aircraft and ships is to physically get them out of the way if able or secure them where they are if not.
Base planners should at least plan for getting certain high value aircraft off base somehow if the aircraft can’t fly. We’ve known the FL coast has the potential for major hurricanes since FL belonged to Spain. If the storm had been Katrina level (i.e. flooded for days and no personnel to guard it) we’d have the same concerns about site security and aircraft damage.

Everything can be planned for with a solid plan plus branch plans. Crew rest, physical security, routes/detours, refueling. Plans can obviously include local PD and military personnel from other bases (Warner Robins makes sense if that’s the destination anyway). Plan, plan, coordinate, revise, plan some more.
 

KODAK

"Any time in this type?"
pilot
Base planners should at least plan for getting certain high value aircraft off base somehow if the aircraft can’t fly. We’ve known the FL coast has the potential for major hurricanes since FL belonged to Spain. If the storm had been Katrina level (i.e. flooded for days and no personnel to guard it) we’d have the same concerns about site security and aircraft damage.

Everything can be planned for with a solid plan plus branch plans. Crew rest, physical security, routes/detours, refueling. Plans can obviously include local PD and military personnel from other bases (Warner Robins makes sense if that’s the destination anyway). Plan, plan, coordinate, revise, plan some more.
How do you propose moving an aircraft that cannot fly? There isn’t a fleet of vehicles and trailers to move aircraft and even so the aforementioned issue of road passage is key. Hurricane-resistant hangars cost a hell of a lot and NAVFAC can barely keep the Korean-war vintage hangars (in some cases) functional as it is. Hurricane and severe weather planning is a major enterprise that all bases and squadrons track; it’s not like someone said “ah shit, a hurricane, wish we had a COA for that.”

I am not saying you anre asking unfair questions, but hurrievacs have been planned for and performed for years. We fly out what can fly and hangar the rest.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
"Why has no one ever done this simple, common sense thing?!?"

Probably because the actual problem isn't simple and the answer is actually extremely complex and expensive.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Base planners should at least plan for getting certain high value aircraft off base somehow if the aircraft can’t fly. We’ve known the FL coast has the potential for major hurricanes since FL belonged to Spain. If the storm had been Katrina level (i.e. flooded for days and no personnel to guard it) we’d have the same concerns about site security and aircraft damage.

No they don't, no one does that. Period.

Everything can be planned for with a solid plan plus branch plans. Crew rest, physical security, routes/detours, refueling. Plans can obviously include local PD and military personnel from other bases (Warner Robins makes sense if that’s the destination anyway). Plan, plan, coordinate, revise, plan some more.

It can certainly be planned for but that doesn't mean it is advisable, practical or even feasible. When a major hurricane comes barreling through there are mass evacuations of people over land, to add to that a MASSIVE operation to move a handful of aircraft would be an utter waste of resources and personnel.

Whatever issues that happened at Tyndall that contributed to the aircraft being damaged could be mitigated by trying to ensure aircraft that can't fly out are better secured where they are. That would be a far better use of resources than trying to pull a Smokey and Bandit IV with F-22's.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
No they don't, no one does that. Period.



It can certainly be planned for but that doesn't mean it is advisable, practical or even feasible. When a major hurricane comes barreling through there are mass evacuations of people over land, to add to that a MASSIVE operation to move a handful of aircraft would be an utter waste of resources and personnel.

Whatever issues that happened at Tyndall that contributed to the aircraft being damaged could be mitigated by trying to ensure aircraft that can't fly out are better secured where they are. That would be a far better use of resources than trying to pull a Smokey and Bandit IV with F-22's.

Having seen a $20M containerized sim get wrecked by a truck driver on an unauthorized side trip, I can’t imagine anything possibly going wrong with loading $100M jets on flatbeds while the roads are jammed with evacuation traffic.

Not saying the USAF handled Tyndall perfectly. Just saying that this shit is hard. If the solution is $2B of milcon, it’s not practical either. Sometimes there’s an ORM calculation and you just mitigate some and accept the rest.
 
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