honor concept vs. honor code?

[DSL1990]

In the movie "Annapolis", Plebe Estrada is kicked out of the USNA because he had been ordered by his detailer to take a shower every 3 hours at night, and then he skipped a shower one night and when he asked by the detailer if he had been taking his showers, he said "yes", and never mentioned he had skipped one shower. Then his roommate ratted him out.

I've been reading some stuff on the Internet about how the USNA has a honor concept instead of an honor code. In real life, would something like this be reason to be kicked out of USNA? Lying about something that a detailer asked for? This is sort of a question about how the honor concept and honor court works in practice at USNA.

I'm pretty sure that for schools like VMI and the Citadel that have honor "codes", such a lie would be reason to be drummed out, but I am just wondering what the difference is with an honor "concept".

BTW, Here is an older article about cadets being kicked out of USAFA for lying and stuff:
http://www.westword.com/2003-07-17/news/honor-rolled/1

 

[HH-60H]

In the movie "Annapolis", Plebe Estrada is kicked out of the USNA because he had been ordered by his detailer to take a shower every 3 hours at night, and then he skipped a shower one night and when he asked by the detailer if he had been taking his showers, he said "yes", and never mentioned he had skipped one shower. Then his roommate ratted him out.

I've been reading some stuff on the Internet about how the USNA has a honor concept instead of an honor code. In real life, would something like this be reason to be kicked out of USNA? Lying about something that a detailer asked for? This is sort of a question about how the honor concept and honor court works in practice at USNA.

I'm pretty sure that for schools like VMI and the Citadel that have honor "codes", such a lie would be reason to be drummed out, but I am just wondering what the difference is with an honor "concept".

BTW, Here is an older article about cadets being kicked out of USAFA for lying and stuff:
http://www.westword.com/2003-07-17/news/honor-rolled/1

I refuse to answer this question because you referred to that movie.

 

[BlackBearHockey]

In the movie "Annapolis"

The "Annapolis" you are referring to is actually a documentary. Everything that you saw in that movie is 100% accurate. Many of my good friends that have gone to the Academy have lived lives extremely similar to the characters portrayed within. In fact, my overweight minority friend who overcame adversity really did get a key to the city in which he lived. It was really moving to hear his story.

If you don't plan on lying all the time, then this shouldn't be that big of an issue or cause for worry. You live and breath AW more than anyone here, I'm pretty sure you've seen that honor and integrity are pretty fucking important to a Naval officer. Don't make it laughable by relating it to Annapolis the movie.

 

[xj220]

Alright, I never saw the movie and for reference never reference it again. But since I'm so nice, I'll answer the question. The USNA has the honor concept and essentially you can be kicked out for any lying, cheating or stealing. If you are a plebe during the summer and lie about doing something, that could be grounds for separation. However, if you actually get kicked out or not is another matter. It depends on the severity of the offense and where you are at. A plebe just starting out will probably have more leniency then a firstie ready to graduate. There should be almost no tolerance for any breaches of the honor concept, however lately (during my time there) breaching the honor concept hasn't been treated as severely as it should (i.e. more people are being retained instead of being booted). If someone is retained, they are "honor remediated" meaning they may have to write a paper and meet with a senior officer (O5/O6) on the yard once a week to discuss things.

Another thing that separates USNA from other schools is that it is all midshipmen run. There are honor hearings and investigations and the only people involved are midshipmen themselves (senior officers oversee things still).

 

[DSL1990]

If you don't plan on lying all the time, then this shouldn't be that big of an issue or cause for worry. You live and breath AW more than anyone here, I'm pretty sure you've seen that honor and integrity are pretty fucking important to a Naval officer. Don't make it laughable by relating it to Annapolis the movie.

OK, then ignore my example from the movie. I am just talking about minor "white" lies. Even a white lie will get you kicked out of VMI, for example, but I just don't understand why the honor code is called an honor "concept" at USNA? does it mean it is different from a code?

The more real life example from USAFA from the article I linked above is about a USAFA senior who went over the fence (away without leave) after classes were over on a friday. He was originally planning to go to Denver with some friends, but at the last minute decided to go to Colorado Springs. He gets called back by his Squadron commander and was told he was being stripped of his leadership position in his Squadron for being over the fence, which totally stressed him out. When he was asked where he went, he said "Denver" and then didn't immediately correct himself, because he thought being "over the fence" was a violation and it didn't matter where he went. But the next morning, without being 1st reported by someone else, he went back to his squadron commander to explain that he said Denver out of nervousness and because it was actually where he had originally planned to go and actually he had been in Colorado Springs. Well, that was a violation of the honor code and he was kicked out of USAFA and forced to go enlisted to pay back for his education, a few weeks before he would have graduated from USAFA.

So would this same thing happen at USNA under an "honor concept"?

 

[xj220]

Like I said before, the USNA honor concept is all midshipmen run whereas other schools aren't. You're going to hear all these stories of how people got tricked into lying, or said something small, blah blah blah and got kicked out of school. There's always more to the story than is being said. Also, whether you are put up for an honor offense or not is dependent on who catches you. Some may chew you out for a small white lie while another may forward you to the honor board. The bigger the lie, the better chance for the boot. Again, there's all these stories out there, usually perpetuated by those who haven't been there and don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Flash]

Another thing that separates USNA from other schools is that it is all midshipmen run. There are honor hearings and investigations and the only people involved are midshipmen themselves (senior officers oversee things still).

Like I said before, the USNA honor concept is all midshipmen run whereas other schools aren't.

The Citadel's and VMI's honor systems are entirely cadet run. There are advisors there to make sure it does not become a kangaroo court but I have never heard of them intervening.

You're going to hear all these stories of how people got tricked into lying, or said something small, blah blah blah and got kicked out of school. There's always more to the story than is being said. Also, whether you are put up for an honor offense or not is dependent on who catches you. Some may chew you out for a small white lie while another may forward you to the honor board. The bigger the lie, the better chance for the boot. Again, there's all these stories out there, usually perpetuated by those who haven't been there and don't know what they're talking about.

I will agree with that. In almost all instances the reasonable man theory usually prevailed. If you said you cleaned under your bunk during an inspection and they find that you did not, you are not going to get kicked out. If you say that you were studying when you were really making out on the town, you can get kicked out.

 

[xj220]

I was more referencing the other service academies in terms of being student run. I'm not familiar with the Citadel's or VMI's system.

 

[abracadabra11]

No. Absolutely not. Plebe lie about things all the time during the summer (namely, shaving). They'll normally get a mouthful from the detailer, but at no time is separation truly considered.

Yes, people do get kicked out for violating the honor concept, but that's normally for things like plagiarism, or lying about a conduct offense or something along those lines.

There is a lot of fudge factor. I'd say most mids will try and approach the person and try and get some clarity.

 

[DanMa1156]

I think the separation between "concept" and "code" from what I've been told, is that the here, the "concept" means you do not have to report the violation to a higher authority. You can, but you don't have to. What you ARE obligated to do is speak with the person to gain clarity.

And it seems that some people knock honor remediation, but I think it's a good program, and I've seen people have some very difficult remediation programs. Definitely one of those things that reminds someone how badly they really want to be here, I think.

I can't speak of plebe summer as I haven't been a detailer, but I can not remember anyone lying except for one incident, and he was reported by classmates. I definitely do not think any of my classmates lied about shaving and I do think that the Honor Concept is fair in most cases.

Something else to keep in mind, and I don't know how other schools work, but I-Day, day 1, you aren't expected that all of a sudden you throw on a uniform and you go from a high-school punk to Mr./Mrs. Honor. It's a development system, and I think throughout my plebe summer and plebe year, there was excellent honor training and education about our system, and little things you may never think about that are grounds for an honor offense. Even today, every thursday, I think, we get these little honor pamphlets discussing an honor related incident from the fleet as reported by an SEL/Officer here, as well as honor cases at the Academy.

 

[DanMa1156]

One more thing here, and again, I don't know how it is at other schools, is that they can't "use your honor against you." While kind of hard to explain, an example would be like say they know someone was drinking underage - they can't say "tell us who it is or you will have an honor offense against you" kind of thing...

Ugh... hard to explain, I'll try to come up with a better explanation... but I've gotta go get ready for an Alpha Inspection now!

 

[xj220]

Good point DanMav, forgot about that aspect. A more appropriate example would be that if you came back from a weekend or leave, they cannot randomly come up to you and ask if you drank underage. They have to have a probably cause i.e. you got in trouble and were reported by the police.

 

[bert]

The more real life example from USAFA from the article I linked above is about a USAFA senior who went over the fence (away without leave) after classes were over on a friday. He was originally planning to go to Denver with some friends, but at the last minute decided to go to Colorado Springs. He gets called back by his Squadron commander and was told he was being stripped of his leadership position in his Squadron for being over the fence, which totally stressed him out. When he was asked where he went, he said "Denver" and then didn't immediately correct himself, because he thought being "over the fence" was a violation and it didn't matter where he went. But the next morning, without being 1st reported by someone else, he went back to his squadron commander to explain that he said Denver out of nervousness and because it was actually where he had originally planned to go and actually he had been in Colorado Springs. Well, that was a violation of the honor code and he was kicked out of USAFA and forced to go enlisted to pay back for his education, a few weeks before he would have graduated from USAFA.

So would this same thing happen at USNA under an "honor concept"?

You ought to be wary of taking a story like that at face value. That isn't the whole story, just the booted guy's version. I think you will find that the honor concept is easy to live with.

 

[DanMa1156]

You ought to be wary of taking a story like that at face value. That isn't the whole story, just the booted guy's version. I think you will find that the honor concept is easy to live with.

Concurred. Definitely seems like a lot more to live with that story. Not messing up the honor concept is easy for yourself; what's hard is what you do when you see one of your friends do it. That's the harder part of the challenge I think.

 

[TheBubba]

Most honor codes state "I will not lie, cheat, steal, nor tolerate those among us who do".The Brigade Honor Concept states, basically, "I will not lie, cheat or steal". The Honor Concept gives you a choice on whether or not you will "rat" the person out; i.e. take action. Should you decide to take more action than just gaining clarity, the Honor Concept seems to give you more choice as a Midshipman on how to deal with your peers. It also puts alot of the process in the hands of Midshipmen. I don't know how it is with the other academies, but at USNA, when you are charged with an Honor Violation, you don't stand before any staff member for adjudication until found guilty by a board of your peers.

As far as the Honor Remediation program, I can speak wonders for it. I have had some (lots) of experience with it. The requirements set forth are extremely high, and each program is tailored to the individual assigned remediation. In most cases, you'll be assigned a mentor, usually O-5 or O-6, an essay assignment and a whole host of other tasks, including briefing your company on what you did. At the end, the 'Dant and the Supe review your essay as well as recommendations from your company officer and mentor. The program is designed to help you take a look at the events leading up to the violation and discuss why you made certain decisions, what you could have done different and educate others so that they don't make the same mistakes that you did.


As far as Dan saying that it can be a reminder of how much you want to be at USNA, well he hit it right on the head. There's nothing like the 'Dant recommending you for separation and the Supe retaining you "contingent upon successful and timely completion of the Honor Remediation Program" to remind you just what it means to be at USNA and how much you really want to stay.

*If anyone wants to know about what happened, especially Mids, PM me and I'll tell. Not something I want floating in public*