For the pointy-nose bubbas: How useful/practical for dogfighting?

[P3 F0]

SU-35 radical thrust vectoring. Not sure whether this has been discussed here or not (search results yield nothing), but for the F- and F/A-types, thrust vectoring is great and all, but this particular maneuver looks a bit silly to me from a combat perspective (although impressive otherwise). And, if it's kosher to discuss here in vague generalities, how confident would you be going up against a 35? Not sure if this video demonstrates a platform capability or a pilot capability (I haven't seen anything like this from our planes, but then, I haven't really looked).

 

[squorch2]

high alpha is all fun and games until KE = 0

 

[wlawr005]

It depends on the thrust to weight ratio and how quickly it can get energy back as well as how quickly it can spend its energy to get to that particular maneuvering regime. Another consideration is what kinds of weapons it's carrying and how quickly they can be cued and fired. If you're going to sell all your energy to maneuver for a shot, you better not miss.

Assuming the answers to all those things are positive...that would be an extremely formidable aircraft in a 1v1 engagement.

 

[Jim123]

 

[sevenhelmet]

Not sure exactly what you mean about "platform vs. pilot capability", but the video appears to showcase a maneuver that isn't possible without some kind of vectored thrust.

Thrust vectoring certainly could make it a challenge to fight in a visual 1v1 perspective where nose position is key, but there is a lot more than that needed to fight and win in any realistic scenario. Speed, range, available weapons and cueing options (as mentioned), factor in greatly, and matter more than thrust vectoring. Bottom line, my F/A-18 gameplan would be to kill it/them BVR with my division(s) of fighters, so we never get to a merge. At the merge, the Su-35 is potentially a capable enough platform that the better trained pilot could have an advantage, which historically points to us.

All that said, there are a lot of unknowns, or if they are known, they can't be talked about here. I'll just say I'm confident in us.

 

[Renegade One]

...the better trained pilot could have an advantage, which historically points to us.

I'll just say I'm confident in us.

 

[Python]

These types of things are really slick for air shows, but not particularly useful for combat. That said, the maneuvers obviously imply incredible tactical maneuverability, agility, and nose authority. So yes, in a fight against that thing, against a clone of me, it would be very formidable with capabilities like that. However, even though it sounds cliche, it comes down to the man in the box. Truly, that will be the biggest thing. And of course, don’t discount the helmet and 9X....

 

[PMPT]

it comes down to the man in the box. Truly, that will be the biggest thing

I was watching some (propaganda) video on youtube about the Sukhois and it proudly proclaimed that the best of the best get up to 100-150 hours per year in TMS. Blew my mind. That's not an awful lot of training for their very top end guys who in theory are, I guess, their SMEs. What are the junior wingmen getting?

 

[Brett327]

I was watching some (propaganda) video on youtube about the Sukhois and it proudly proclaimed that the best of the best get up to 100-150 hours per year in TMS. Blew my mind. That's not an awful lot of training for their very top end guys who in theory are, I guess, their SMEs. What are the junior wingmen getting?

Most of the SMEs at NAWDC get about that much.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

I was watching some (propaganda) video on youtube about the Sukhois and it proudly proclaimed that the best of the best get up to 100-150 hours per year in TMS. Blew my mind. That's not an awful lot of training for their very top end guys who in theory are, I guess, their SMEs. What are the junior wingmen getting?

That’s pretty typical, actually better than a lot of my peers got. Hopefully it’s better now but 150 isn’t bad

 

[whitesoxnation]

I was watching some (propaganda) video on youtube about the Sukhois and it proudly proclaimed that the best of the best get up to 100-150 hours per year in TMS. Blew my mind. That's not an awful lot of training for their very top end guys who in theory are, I guess, their SMEs. What are the junior wingmen getting?

Not every flight hour is equal. A BFM sortie where you are in the area shortly after takeoff can be as quick as a 0.6 and will make you a better pilot than a 4.0 spent tanking and hanging on the blades. Total # of reps matter just like flight hours. I'd take three 0.6s in a day doing BFM in a BFM configured jet over two 1.0s doing the same thing with two external fuels tanks. That's less hours but more reps and better training.

150 hours isn't anything to write home about, but it's also more than a lot of US aircrew may see in a year. It also probably isn't enough to make or keep anyone absurdly proficient that doesn't already have a lot of experience.

Pilot training is also not just hours and sorties. You can obviously do things in the sim you can't or that are cost/risk prohibitive to do in the jet, and things like ability and experience in mission planning and academics are important as well. You have to look at things holistically.

 

[PMPT]

Not every flight hour is equal. A BFM sortie where you are in the area shortly after takeoff can be as quick as a 0.6 and will make you a better pilot than a 4.0 spent tanking and hanging on the blades. Total # of reps matter just like flight hours. I'd take three 0.6s in a day doing BFM in a BFM configured jet over two 1.0s doing the same thing with two external fuels tanks. That's less hours but more reps and better training.

150 hours isn't anything to write home about, but it's also more than a lot of US aircrew may see in a year. It also probably isn't enough to make or keep anyone absurdly proficient that doesn't already have a lot of experience.

Pilot training is also not just hours and sorties. You can obviously do things in the sim you can't or that are cost/risk prohibitive to do in the jet, and things like ability and experience in mission planning and academics are important as well. You have to look at things holistically.

Well, I stand fully corrected. I had assumed the Top Gun/WTI/Weapons School guys would be getting a huge number of annual hours, even considering brief sortie time.

 

[Odominable]

Well, I stand fully corrected. I had assumed the Top Gun/WTI/Weapons School guys would be getting a huge number of annual hours, even considering brief sortie time.

Other good posts here explaining this, but yeah, I was significantly more proficient my last year in a gun squadron in HMLA METs than I was as a RAG IP doing 300 hours of Fam. A dude who flew thirty hours in a month doing FAC(A), high threat AR, and low light CAS is going to better at his job than another guy who flew fifty hours after schmoozing his way onto two cross countries and riding the test train (not to besmirch that of course).