Enlisted navigators in the Corps.

[MarineAir]

Hello everyone. A few years ago,I was very surprised when I ran into a MECEP who wore gold wings on his chest. After talking to him for awhile, he explained he was an enlisted navigator on C-130s. Well, I did some research into it and found out that the Marines are the only service that had enlisted navigators. I also found out that once the corps started taking delivery of the newest model of C-130's,the 'J' models, the enlisted navigators were to be phrased out because computers negated the need for a third crewman to conduct navigations. I'm curious, is this the case now or are enlisted navigators still kicking around?

 

[Blutonski816]

My Senior MArine Instructor from JROTC has a Son in the corps who is an enlisted C-130 Navigator instructor...
No news as to wether or not they'll be working on the J....

 

[JimmyK]

The enlisted Nav school closed in July of 04. No need for them since they all started taking deliveries of the J models. The reserves will still be flying the older stlye hercs for some time and you can still enlist into a reserve unit and be a tac nav, providing they have a spot. But, I would venture to guess that the reserves will have an overload of already qualified tac navs ready to fill those empty spots for years to come. My understanding is if you were to take this path you would go to Boot-MCT-NACCS then back to your unit for OJT to be a tac nav. This is what my recruiter told me so take it for what its worth.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Trivia time - anyone know the last enlisted/CWO Naval Aviator in the Marine Corps? (hint, he flew 53's)

 

[bobbybrock]

Interseting, I knew the Navy/Marines had NAP's back in the day. I didn't know they made any CWO types pilots, or was that a different program? Or was that a postion you could progress to through the ranks? Kind of like the way of a modern day CWO.

 

[Flash]

The Marine enlisted NAV students were using the same sims and planes that the USAF advanced NAV school at Randolph when I was going through a few years ago. They had their own building though and we rarely saw them (ironically, it was a very nice new building). We learned a lot about it from one of our ground instructors (who were retired military NAV's), he was a retired Marine CWO4 and a former CO of the Marine NAV school. He was a real character and had some pretty interesting stories, most involved how little equipment the Marine 130's had to navigate with. Ironically, they learned more real navigation, like celestial navigation, than us Navy and AF types did. Sad to see such a unique type of aircrew disappear.

The wings they wore were a version of USN Navigator wings they issued for a very short time in WWII. It looks like a pair of NFO wings but with a Compass rose instead of a sheild over the crossed anchors.

The wings:http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usnavy/usnavynavigator.shtml

http://shop.vendio.com/icarter/item/508965864/?s=1128161657

An article about their training: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Aug1997/n08211997_9708212.html

 

[ChuckMK23]

Interseting, I knew the Navy/Marines had NAP's back in the day. I didn't know they made any CWO types pilots, or was that a different program? Or was that a postion you could progress to through the ranks? Kind of like the way of a modern day CWO.

No, the one I was referring to was the legendary Jack Grinstead - who flew '53's in Vietnam, made Major, and was RIF'd. Was reinstated as a Gunnery Sargent, eventually promoted to CWO-4. Instructed at HT-18 in the 80's and then I heard he went to Saudi Arabia as a civillian flight instructor to the Saudi Navy flying the Super Puma.

Anyways, he had some incredible stories. I believe there was an article in "Leatherneck" about hiom and his career - as well as another article in "Naval Aviation News"

 

[bobbybrock]

There's a book out there called " They also flew" which is all about the legacy of the enlisted pilot. The book mostly covers the army air corps/air force up to its seperation from the army in 1947. I read it a few years back and can't remember if it talked about NAP's. I'm pretty sure it did though. Pretty good read.

 

[ip568]

Black Cats

When I was in Vietnam with my P-3 squadron, we bunked with the Army's Black Cats. They were incredibly salty Army CWOs and NCOs who were flying ex-Navy, highly-modified AP-2Hs (an SP-2H variant loaded with guns and rockets). They flew spook missions at night and could drink any Navy flier into a coma. Had some stories to tell, as most of them were Korean Vets and some WWII...

 

[bobbybrock]

ip,
Just curious. Were the NCO's aviators or some type of system operators in the back?
The army actually had a program that ended in the early 90's that had an enlisted observer flying in OH-58's. They all got basic pilot training during their initial training. Many of these guys went on to flight school after the program was discontinued.

 

[MarineAir]

Does Anyone know the rationale behind allowing all officers to have college degree(warrant officers not withstanding) and why only officers can be pilots. There obiviously is a proven track record both here and with foreign militaries that enlisted men can fly just as good and sometimes better than their officer counterparts.

 

[saltpeter]

The military is simply trying ensure that they get a return on their investment. They figure that if you can put up with the b.s. of college you'll have a better chance of putting up with it in the military. It wasn't long ago that the Navy didn't even require a college degree. Nav Cad's (Seaman to Admiral) would complete flight school as an E6 and then be commissioned an Ensign when they finished flight school. They'd finish college after their first tour. This stopped within the last several years.

 

[wink]

When I was in Vietnam with my P-3 squadron, we bunked with the Army's Black Cats. They were incredibly salty Army CWOs and NCOs who were flying ex-Navy, highly-modified AP-2Hs (an SP-2H variant loaded with guns and rockets). They flew spook missions at night and could drink any Navy flier into a coma. Had some stories to tell, as most of them were Korean Vets and some WWII...

Threadjack My father in law was a principle founder of these guys. He was essentially the program manager for the sigint side. It was a very successful program and the Army loved it. The USAF killed it. They went crying to the pentagon that the plane was too big for the Army and it was, oh my God, ARMED The AF said they would support the mission with their aircraft and their airmen. Of course, that never happened. The program died with no replacement and the Army got screwed.

 

[bobbybrock]

I think a lot of people have asked the same question concerning the degree requirement.
I think saltpeter is right when he says that the military wants to see if you will stick with something.
I do know that most countries aren't as restictive as the US as far as that requirement. As far as enlisted aviators, this is what I've seen. The UK, Spain and Germany all have enlisted pilots in the ARMY. I have never seen an Air Force or Navy with enlisted aviators.
I've worked with the Brits and the Germans and I can say that these guys could fly the snot out of a helicopter. I flew with a British Army Air Corps SSG in a Lynx. One of the best pilots I ever flew with. I think the Germans are or have gone to all officers flying their aircraft. But it is intresting that it is Armies that have enlisted pilots.
I have a few thoughts about this but was wondering if any of you Navy or Marine bubbas have seen or worked with other countries that have enlisted pilots in the Navy, Marines or Air Force.

 

[deadlysquid999]

Referring to the comment from ChcukMK23 above about Jack Grinstead: He (from HT-18) and I (from HT-8) (along with about 6 other guys) were the initial cadre of IPs selected to stand up the HITU in 1990-91. That patch he shows as his avatar was actually designed by Jack, MAJ Pat Bennet (the new OIC), myself, and other plank owners of the unit. It doesn't really mean anything except that movie was really popular at the time and we considered ourselves sort of renegades from the HTs. We even gave out copies of movie to each new IP as they headed off to the HTs until we ran out. Before the HITU, all new IP training was done via "inter-squadron" flights and took forever to get through as the new guy was always last priority to get done. So the HITU was born in an old abandoned hangar somewhere on south field between the HTs and the boondocks. I think the contractor used it for storage or something and they gave us the upstairs office spaces to work out of. It was a long walk to maintenance to check out a helo! But we did have a ping-pong table to amuse ourselves with on weather days. Jack was an icon within the HTs and his life experiences and invaluable knowledge about how to "really" fly a helicopter made him a most admired pilot and a venerable figure in the HITU. Man, he was old then to all of us young LTs and CAPTs who made up the new HITU. It was good to have him around though. And he was a blast to be around. The last time I saw Jack was in my front yard in about 1992. My next door neighbor was involved in a really horrific car crash in Milton on one of the those country back-roads one night. He was hurt very badly to the point where he couldn't take care of his yard. He was a member of the church Jack attended. Jack and I took turns cutting the guys grass until I separated from the Navy (for a while) in 1992. The last thing Jack said to me was "I got it" (in typical Jack-fashion) regarding caring for the guys yard by himself. No mission was ever above him or beneath him.