DOR's

[Steve Wilkins]

quote:Some guys DORed outright in protest, which to me, seemed a stupid idea

quote:The little bastards don't deserve the right to wear my wings.

quote:I hate quitters and I really hate quitters with an attitude! God Damnit, if you start this program....finish it.

What really irritates the hell out me is the common judgement that DOR's are forced to deal with. It seems to me that there is a whole lot of talking on here without any thought going on behind it. Just because you have wings does not make you high and mighty and the authority figure on everyone else's character. Which is essentially what you're doing when they become the "little bastards" everyone speaks of.

To say that these guys DOR'd out of protest and then to condemn them for doing so is fairly immature. Nobody really knows why they DOR'd, except for them. I know from experience that the decision to DOR was the most difficult decision I have ever had to make. Speaking with other DOR's, I know that the decision for them was diffcult as well. So do us all a favor and think before you speak. Most of us are are doing the best job we know how, trying to find some enjoyment in what we do. I certainly know that we are not the little bastard children you think we are. In fact, I may even be the OOD on your next trip out to sea.

--Steve

 

[Frumby]

"Just because you have your wings does not make you high and mighty and the authority figure on eeryone else's character."

Actually Steve, you are wrong. As a Field Grade Officer, I do have the right to make a judgement call and with the facts that I had, I did. I'm not condeming DOR's and labling them "little bastards" as you have. I'm condeming officers who put themselves before their SWORN duty. What really bothers me is now they can go out to the fleet as a line officer in charge of sailors or Marines. How do you think those troops will be treated? Will the officer put himself first or his troops? I believe in leadership by example. Will those troops receive the proper leadership to become good NCO's? I don't know but the odds are against them.
Unfortunately, you took my rantings personal and failed to see the merits of my tyraid. There is a reason to have DOR policy and everyone has there reasons but to abuse the policy is downright cowardice. To me, those are the same people who have "I love Jane Fonda," bumperstickers.
I also see SNA's who DOR as a leadership failure. Not of the SNA but of his/hers senior officers. My best friend and roomate from college, OCS, TBS and flight school DOR'ed. I watched how troubled he was and the help he could not get so in utter frustration, he left. I swore that would never happen on my watch. I was the senior Marine and Stan O of VT-22 for 2 1/2 years, we never had a DOR. I had quite a few come to me and request it but we were able to work through that person's problems and remedy the situation. I never had a DOR.
I speak from many years of experience Steve, that is why I input to this forum. Heck, when I earned my gold bars, you were probably earning a gold star for spelling some where. The next time you attempt to berrate me, I suggest that you listen to your own advice:

"so do us all a favor and think before you speak."
Semper Fi! Frumby

Attack Pilot
Major USMC

Edited by - frumby on 09/04/2001 10:17:49

Edited by - frumby on 09/04/2001 10:23:48

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I have just a few things to add to this post. First, my post was not meant to berate Frumby. What it WAS meant to do was initiate some thought behind a lot of the pre-judgment so evident. What I saw in the posts were people jumping on the Frumby bandwagon. Although completely understandable (he is afterall a pilot with some years under his belt), I felt it was my responsibility to speak up about what I felt was pure and simple, an assumption made (correct or incorrect is not the issue here) with no facts to back it up.

My reason is simple. Nobody, not one single person here, had a single fact which to speak of in order to make any sound judgement on the situation whatsoever. We had only two posts that very briefly described what someone believed to be true. That's it, nothing more.

quote:I know that they were sending Navy students to ships for 179 days of TDY who got unlucky and reported to the API pool late last summer. If this is still going on, take it in stride. You're a naval officer, and if you keep the attitude that you'll benefit from it, you probably will. Some guys DORed outright in protest, which to me, seemed a stupid idea. I spent very little time in the pool, since I got tagged for UPT at Vance. *Marines, being MATSG controlled, did not go to sea.

quote:To give a fuller picture of what was going on, it was my understanding that they were given orders for immediate execution without the travel time or the proceed normally required for such a move. I know that one of the two guys had been in the pool for about 2 months, and felt that he had gotten really jerked around. In all fairness to him, he probably was. We were all getting jerked around. I don't know what the current PSD situation is at Pensacola, but I never got paid the same thing two paydays in a row (many in my class were in the same situation) and the student control officer really couldn't care. The two guys were dealing with the same sort of stuff. But I agree with Frumby, if you think you're owed something, then you are dead wrong. Getting funny pay is one thing--take that to the chain of command--but DORing because you are being required to do what you signed up to do--go to sea in the Navy--is certainly worth an "attitude check".

What has been viewed as a "protest" here on the forum could very well have been a logical and well thought out decision for someone, based on the factors that influence that individual. Since we don't know what those factors are, how can we possibly assume we know why someone DOR'd? How?

One last question. Frumby, how is it that you can hate the "quitter" if the only reason he was able to quit was by reason of poor leadership?

--Steve

 

[Frumby]

Ok, I'm tired of this topic. I can see your point Steve. After reading through the followon posts, I can see that you were merely attempting to teach to those with little or no experience. I appreciate your last post and realized that maybe I was wearing my heart(if I had one, it wasn't issued) on my sleeve.
In reference to your last question, simple, I just hate the Navy! (you don't really want me to get into this topic. If you do then email me) Semper Fi! Frumby

Attack Pilot
Major USMC

Edited by - frumby on 09/05/2001 06:51:47

 

[Mcaf]

Hey works for me cause I hate the Marines, but I am friends with many. For those who understand what I mean.

 

[Teddy]

Gentlemen,

Good natured ribbing aside, I don't think any member of one service truly hates another service. I'm all for pride, fun, and poking fun at others. I'd rather be a Marine, and that's why I'm joining. I think everyone should want to be a Marine. However, do you really HATE the other service? And do other officers really HATE the Marines? Strong words. The anonymity of forums can be dangerous. Perhaps this is my lack of experience showing through.

Ignoring foreign hostiles, there is plenty of criticism of the US Military in general. Many in the US think we're nothing but a bunch of war hungry, baby killing lunatics. Other's view us as a necessary evil but don't recognize our honor, courage, and committment. I'm ready to accept that criticism, and want to spend the next 20 years proving it wrong. Once again - I'm all for tossing around a few good Navy jokes, but when it comes down to it - we are all here for the same cause. Perhaps idealistic, perhaps naive, but that's where I come out.

Teddy.

 

[Frumby]

No Teddy,
I do not hate the other services especially the Navy. I will rib a squid until the day I die. If you could only hear "Ready Room Banter" I think maybe you could understand. In a ready room, no fault goes unturned. Every mistake you make, both flying or in every day life, is exploited with ribbing humor. If you don't have a thick skin, you certainly develope one! It is a camaraderie that can't be explained but experienced. That's the problem with a written forum, you can't appreciate the sarcasm in the prose and I'm not a good enough writer to convey emotion.
Swearing an oath of loyalty to your country will be criticized by everyone who have sacrificed nothing yet require every last drop of nectar from the virtues of freedom. For the most part, people have always been good to me and have thanked me for my service. Believe me there is more majority then minority. I assume that you are still in college and it is here that you will face your toughest criticism. I haven't met a college student yet that wasn't outspoken on their point of view but generally did not have the experience to make an intelligent criticism. As they get older and more experienced, even the toughest critics will at least appreciate your dedication. I hope that helps.
Can we get an farther from the original topic?
One last point. Speaking of professional banter, I had just commissioned one of my best friends into the Navy. Of course, afterwards while tossing back a few red ales at Mcguires, I kept referring to her as a squid. She asked me "Do you know what a squid is?" I replied with a choice smart ass snipet. She said "A squid is an animal which swims in the ocean and SH^Ts on Marine life!" I was speechless. I had just taken a face shot and never saw it coming. I'm still paying for it from her but it was the best slam I ever received. I thought someone might appreciate that story. Semper Fi!
Frumby

p.s. Always remember the Marine Corps is part of the Department of the Navy. Specifically, THE MENS DEPARTMENT!

Attack Pilot
Major USMC

Edited by - frumby on 09/06/2001 03:21:12

Edited by - frumby on 09/06/2001 04:53:28

 

[Mcaf]

Frumby,
I'm glad to see you know exactly what I mean. I say that I "hate" marines but I would lay down my life for anyone of you. For my six years of prior service, I have worked along side marines and loved the tension between the two forces. It makes great fun out of what can be pretty boring times. Yes, sometimes it spills out of control, but mostly its just ribbing. I graduated BOOST two years ago where they took a bunch of us squids and tried to make us work with a bunch of jarheads. At first it was a total mess because people's egos were getting stepped on quite often due to the differences in the two services. But after only a few weeks we were all down at Oddballs(bar in Newport) drinking beer and slamming on each other. The worst thing to actually ever say to a MECEP marine is "What's up there, Navy Option." I personally think that as long as we all know its just ribbing its good to go. This is exactly what my quote meant.
Teddy,
I threw that one out there because I kinda forgot this forum is probably read by more people aspiring to be in the Navy/Marines than the number of people that have been in for awhile. I understand this is a forum mostly for future naval officers but I think this is good to know when you work with marines. Marines like to talk trash and thats all it is: TRASH.

 

[JTurse]

I agree mostly with Frumby and Matt. I would suggest that I never passed judgment on DORs in a general manner; to do so, for me, would be both hypocritical and immature. If some of you have read the rest of my posts, I did DOR. There were, of course, some complex issues involved, and were unrelated to the API post about the guys that DORed because they were going to sea.

I still stand by my original opinion: I would not recommend to a starting SNA that they choose to DOR out of protest against doing what IS their duty. Yes, when we were in the API pool, we were getting jerked around pretty readily, they were going to send up to 70 ensigns to aircraft carriers, there was a bad delay, and NAPPI was creating all sorts of havoc in the pipeline. But being sent to a ship to do your duty is no sort of dishonor.

As far as the rest....yes, I DORed. I've known plenty of others who have also DORed--mostly fine officers, often with complex issues at hand. I did not pass judgment on all DORs--just those who do it in some strange notion of protest.

Again, I would not suggest DORing out of a protest against doing your duty. DORing for puking, DORing becuase you don't like flying, DORing because you have mortality issues or "manifestations of apprehension" are somewhat different than deliberately evading your duty or what you have been legally ORDERED to do should cause some moral questioning.

Steve, this wasn't an attack on DORs. I would be hypocritical if I were to launch such an attack. Should we question why folks DOR? Sure. We should take a hard look at what motivates SNAs, what motivates them to do well in the program, and what motivates them to attrite or DOR. We can gain from the perspectives shared by those who chose to DOR, those who have been in leadership positions dealing with DORs (like Frumby), and those with differing opinions. We may even help some folks orient their moral compass and be better officers and/or aviators.

'nuf said. MY opinion.........
keep 'em safe.

JT

 

[Gabe2surf]

Sorry to butt in. I'm new to Navy terminology. What is a DOR? Sorry again for the ignorance.

 

[Paul Burke]

DOR- Drop On Request. In other words quit the program. Doesn't mean that they won't still serve time in the service though.

 

[Dave Shutter]

You can DOR at anytime during OCS and go home, if you owe time enlisted then you're going back to your prior duty station. We have a few poeple who've been NPQ'd for different reasons in my class and they've been playing musical designators for weeks. A lot of them want commissions no matter what and are sticking it out and another guy went home. It's a decision you have to make if you get whammied. People may call you a quitter but why stay in if your not going to truly care about what your doing, that doesn't help anyone.

 

[Paul Burke]

What are some of the reasons that people of been NPQ'ed?

 

[Dave Shutter]

Optic pit, height, vision, sinus's headaches...you name it. Just because MEPS give's you the thumbs up doesn't mean the Flight Doc' down here will, and their word is the the one that counts.