Crash Crews

[C420sailor]

After reading about the Maryland EMS mishap and talking about it with some of the guys in my fire department, we got on the topic of crash crews / landing zone fire standbys. Supposedly, the county police helo pilots do not like when fire departments send an engine to an unprepared landing area (high school field, beach parking lot, road, etc.) simply because we "get in the way".

The crews usually secure the area prior to arrival, gear up, stretch and charge a foam line, and check the area for FOD, if time permits.

For all of the aviators out there, what do you think? Does having a fire crew standing by with a charged AFFF line put you at ease, piss you off, or does it not matter? Do you think this is a good practice?

 

[phrogpilot73]

I can see both sides of the coin. If you're there, then there is a margin of safety. However, without understanding the aerodynamics of the helo THAT DAY, it could be an issue. How? You've got a big ass truck that may be blocking a departure corridor they were planning on, or that the zone is small enough that they need every inch of it for takeoff. I'd say if you did all of the above, minus the charged line - and were just outside the perimeter of the zone - then it would be good all around.

 

[Harrier Dude]

I'd have to answer "I don't care" with the caveat that I'd prefer them there as long as they don't get in the way or delay the evolution.

As a Harrier guy, we need them on station for FCLPs and forward base operations (FBOs, like road ops or CAL site ops). I haven't ever needed them for those evolutions, thankfully, but it's s nice to have. The downside is that it's another moving part for the scheduling piece. If they don't show up on time or are otherwise in the way of operations, they can do more harm than good.

These guys work for me now, and I can see their operations much better than I could before. You don't need them until you really need them, and their preparedness is directly tied to how much lead time you give them.

In the EMS situation, I can't see how you'd really be able to coordinate all of this on such short notice, but I don't have any experience with EMS operations. Do they have some sort of SOP with local FDs? Is that the norm everywhere?

 

[A4sForever]

I don't speak HELO, even though I've logged @ 50 206/206L hours sleep_125) and landed on an oil rig (under direct supervision -- and once ), but ... I cannot think of any valid reason to NOT have trained crash & rescue available if one has the option.

"In the way" ... ?? I seriously doubt that w/ trained crews ... one of the first things you broadcast around an airport in the airlines when confronting an emergency/abnormal landing situation is "ROLL THE CRASH CREWS... "

That's what they get paid for ... not to sit around the station house playin' Ace/Deuce ... and my experience has been when you need 'em, you REALLY need 'em.

Although ... they nearly ran over me and killed me once in an Oskosh ...

 

[phrogpilot73]

I cannot think of any valid reason to NOT have trained crash & rescue available if one has the option.

"In the way" ... ?? I seriously doubt that w/ trained crews ... one of the first things you do around an airport in the airlines when confronting an emergency/abnormal landing situation is "ROLL THE CRASH CREWS... "

Like I said, the valid reason would be if it's a small enough zone to need all of it - and then you have a truck parked, essentially cutting off part of the zone. Right outside the perimeter (within a 15 second drive) would be good. I don't think we're talking trained CFR, but local FD.

Look at it this way - would you like the crash crew parked on the runway at the departure end? Or on the ramp nearby? That's the best way I can describe it...

 

[A4sForever]

.....Look at it this way - would you like the crash crew parked on the runway at the departure end? ...That's the best way I can describe it...

Of course not; that would fall into the category of ridiculous as I couldn't take off if they were "on the runway" ...

But on rollout .. I want 'em waiting at the departure end of the landing rollout (on the side) and/or chasin' me all the way down the runway ... preferably both.

Like I said: no speak-o HELO.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Like I said: no speak-o HELO.

That's ok, I don't speak much Whale...

It's easy for me to envision them being in the way, as I've landed in very tight LZ's. Tight enough that if there was ANYTHING in the zone, I wouldn't be landing there. I've also taken off from LZ's while hot and heavy, one I had to squirt through an opening in the trees with my nose wheel less than 10 feet above the ground. If there was a firetruck in that zone, it would have been a bad, bad, bad night...

 

[A4sForever]

^ Yeah ... but they let YOU carry a gun.

 

[HokiePilot]

When I was in college, I was on the local rescue squad and we landed a helo once every-other-month or so. I also went to the training given by the helo crew on what they wanted when they got to a scene. They specifically stated that didn't require a crew there but weren't adverse to one. They didn't want a charged line though because that would slow the response if the crash wasn't exactly at the landing location.

What they did ask us for was a scene brief on arrival. Winds, powerlines, trees, etc. They also asked us to mark these hazards with vehicles if possible. We were also given minimum field sizes depending on which helo was coming, but we never really had to force them into a small zone. We had ~25 locations of plenty size around the county preselected with coordinates for them so we could tell the helo where to go before we even got there. The helo was far enough away that they never beat us to these locations.

Our SOP was for the local FD to roll a truck and set up the LZ. They weren't nearly as fast as us though and we normally had enough EMS guys to both handle patient care and deal with the LZ. The FD would sometimes show up, some times not.