Big Desision: Military Aviation or Civilian

[Jason_F-18E_USN]

This is my first post to the forums. I will be starting my senior year in high school next year and I want to find out all I can about Military Aviation and Civilian. Any information about the daily duties of both and what the life is like. I have already applied for the Navy ROTC scholarship and if I recieve the scholarship I would like to go to Embry-Riddle or Jacksonville University. If I do not recieve the scholarship I am planning on going to Middle Tennessee State University and then to an airline or OCS. With all this said any opinions or statements on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Jason_F-18E_USN]

Desision should be spelled Decision.

 

[NuSnake]

My advice is to have some fun and not really worry about it. Youve got plenty of time to just chill out and figure everything out slowly rather than find out everything ASAP. Have fun, go to parties, hook up with some girls and have a beer(well, wait on that till you turn 21, cough cough)...as a matter of fact I think that I will go ahead and finish the one I have...ahhhh yes, icy cool greatness!!!!!

If a frog had wings he wouldnt bump his ass all the time

 

[chiplee]

straight to an airline after college huh? that's a good idea. Let us know how it works out. I think your best bet is to hang here for a while and gather information slowly. You just asked a pretty broad question there. I mean your questions are simple enough but the questions that are implied by a few of your comments are very broad. I'm gently trying to say you have alot to learn, but there's no hurry. I'll break it down briefly.

To "go to an airline" to be something other than a baggage handler, you'll need an airline transport pilot's license. There are a couple of those types around here who can give you alot more detail but what I remember is that the FAA minimum is 1500 hours and a highschool education. Considering CHARLES L. SHARKEY was probably the youngest airline pilot ever at age 22 in the 30s or 40s you'd be lucky to get in before you turn 30. You'll not likely get hired with anything less than twice that many hours as a civilian applicant and you'll probably be about 35 by the time you've accumulated those hours by working odd jobs dropping jumpers or instructing to build hours and semi pay the bills. I'm pulling numbers out of my ass but you get the idea. Anyone who knows feel free to correct what I'm saying please. IIRC there are courses in the $25,000 range that get you to a commercial rating, which requires 250 hours. No where near the FAA minimum to be an airline pilot.

Then there's the military. they'll pay for your school, your flight training, your doctor bills, your rent, and give you a decent wage to live on at the same time, and all you owe in return is your willingness to throw your little pink body in harms way whenever the call is made for 6 or 8 years of your life that starts after you get your wings. At 17 or so I don't expect you to have some burning desire to be in a particular branch of service but unless you or your family are VERY financially stable I suggest you strongly consider a career in military aviation, whatever branch you choose. Know this, if you decide now that this is what you want, you'll not be free from it for about 15 years from the time you start college. College=4 years, flight school=2-3(depending on service mainly) and commitment=8 if you're lucky. Ah but where does that leave you? assuming you're 18 when you start college, that leaves you at 33 with about 2000 hours and a college education, in an airline environment that can't help but be better than it is now. And you'll have alot more to offer the airlines than you did right out of college (or even 8 years after college when you get the hours you need to even apply for a job. Some things to think about. Hopefully some other guys who know more about specific stuff and current requirements will fill you in some more.

 

[jn99_2000]

I am in somewhat of the same predicament you are in. I will be a senior high school next year, and am considering NROTC and AFROTC looking to become a pilot in either service. I have also considered civilian training although it is very expensive. You said you are considering Embry-Riddle, but I have talked to several airline-pilots whom attended their and are still paying off college lones @36 years old!!!!!!!!!

It can cost over 125K to get degree and ratings from Embry-Riddle. If going civilian many pilots say school degree came from doesn't matter unless you get into an intership program which would be very good. Consider Western Michigan, Purdue, Univeristy of North Dakota, LA Tech, University of Nebraska, Arizona State, Auburn, OK State, and many many more schools too list.

Best of luck to you.
Also consider a non-aviation major and pursue your ratings through a local FBO, as you could have something to fall back on.

 

[Ryoukai]

Is there any reason you listed the schools you did? Do they have some kind of edge in this area?

"The Defense Department regrets to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid"

 

[airgreg]

Jason and jn99,
I commend you both for being more informed than I was in high school. Not that I know everything, but a few points of advice:
1) Your perspective in life will change drastically in the next 5 years. I KNEW what I wanted to do in high school, then it changed in college, then it changed again in college, then it changed again when I graduated, and 2 years later it changed again when 9-11 happened. And I was what some people would call "stable". Keep in mind that as you get older, the world becomes a much bigger and more complicated place. If you're gonna commit yourself to a career early on, make sure you know everything there is to know about it.
2) This forum has a wealth of information. I bet if you do a search for "high school", you'll come up with a lot of helpful info. Spend a few days just reading the old posts to get a sense for the reality and difficulties of aviation.
3) Learn about the BDCP program. I wish I knew about it back when I was in high school. It would have saved me a lot of money and working during college.
4) As dumb as it sounds, if you want to be a military pilot BE GOOD OVERALL. Be good in school, sports, leadership, health, etc... And don't have any major legal screw ups or drug use.

Another board that might help you with the AF stuff is:
http://studentpilot.net/cf/msgboard/messageresultsp.cfm?RequestTimeout=500&ds=studentpilot&msgforumid=10

In short: WORK HARD, PLAY HARD, AND DON'T SCREW UP.
Best of luck to you both. You're about to start the best years of your life.

 

[46Driver]

Uhhh, Chiplee, you are seriously misinformed. I have been flying in the airlines for 2 1/2 years and still do not have an ATP. An ATP is required to be a Captain for an airliner, not a First Officer. So yes, you can get hired with just your commercial and instrument licenses. Minimums are quite competitive, however, my company (ACA) has "bridge" programs with some of the aeronatical programs where you can be hired with 600 hours total, 100 hours multi-engine. I suggest you go to each of the airline websites (Comair, ASA, ACA, etc) and check on each individual airline. The jump from a regional can take from a few years if the timing is good to never if it stays the way it is - the airline industry is not only in a down cycle but in the midst of a revolutionary change. The major carriers are getting killed by the new Low Cost Carriers (SouthWest, Jet Blue, Air Tran, etc). If you want more info, I suggest you try www.flightinfo.com for any information on the airlines.
As for the military route to the airlines, it used to be the only way. It still has its benefits - especially the connections - but remember that if you select out of primary during a helo draft (nothing you can do about that) you are basically hosed for the airlines.
That being said, the airlines can be quite boring. Also, concentrate on your college studies and have a backup plan - one only needs to look and see the 10,000+ pilots furloughed now. And if your company goes under, you have to start at the bottom somewhere else do to the seniority system.
Good Luck with whatever you choose.

PS: We have a 24 year old CRJ captain at my company. I think he skipped college to concentrate on flying and hit the timing just right, getting into our company young and then being able to upgrade to captain when both his seniority allowed it and he was old enough to get his ATP at age 23. Funny thing is, he landed the jet and then we went out on the town but I had to rent the car because he wasn't old enough for the rental companies!

 

[Jaxs170]

It is possible to be flying with an airline in your early 20s, or at least I should say I know a guy who did it. His parents owned a flight school so he got an early start, was instructing at 18, and was flying DC-9s at 24 I think it was (can't remember the airline's name, they flew out of New Jersey). He is now in his mid 40s working for Continental as a 777 FO and has 25000+ hours and 19 years worth of senority with them (could be a 737 capt. if he wanted). Use this as inspiration if you want to, not sure it can be done now-a-days on the commercial side.

Chiplee is right, probably take you till your late 20s to build up enough hours to get on with a regional airline then a few more to get on with a major if the job market opens up again in 3-5 years as is being predicted, if it doesn't, it could be much longer. Till then, expect low pay hovering around minimum wage, plus as a new guy anywhere you would get the worst schedules to boot till another new guy came along. The plus side: A lot more freedom and far fewer rules to deal with.

The military gets you much better training that is fully paid for (talking about possibly over $2 million just to get winged), plus a livable salary to start which increases and becomes very respectable after about 4 years (more than enough for a single guy, and livable for married folks w/ kids). The (possible) down side: Having to deal with all the restrictions and rules that go along with being in the military.

Check out both possibilites over the next year or so and you'll probably find that one of them is much more for you than the other, good luck!

 

[chiplee]

Originally posted by 46Driver
Uhhh, Chiplee, you are seriously misinformed.

I said I was pulling stuff out of my ass to give the young buck a feel for what kind of training he would have to pay for if he didn't join. I never saw an instructor who was leaving and not getting an ATP so admittedly I assumed it was required. I'm sure it's required if you mean to make very good money. I invited corrections and additions. No need for the "seriously" part, just hey man you got a couple things wrong there. When I profess to be an expert on the matter the details will be accurate I assure you, but that was no where near the case this time.

 

[46Driver]

Sorry 'bout that - I didn't mean to sound like a jackass. Its been a long night with 3 student flights: 2 basic instruments and 1 night fam so I was - and am - exhausted. The whole ATP thing is required to be a captain in the airlines. I am sure most of your instructors had the 1500 hours to get it before even applying - many of us helo bubbas don't have the fixed wing hours to get a fixed wing ATP so we just wait. When you upgrade from First Officer to Captain, that checkride counts also as your ATP ride (if you don't have one - but you do need to have taken the ATP written first.)
Anyway, good luck and fly safe!

 

[Jester]

46Driver,
What did you have to do to get on with an airline having primarily helo flight time? Did you have to pay out of pocket for multi-engine fixed wing time in order to get hired on? Just curious how it worked for you.

Jester

 

[46Driver]

A lot of the regionals wanted a minimum of 100 hours multi-engine fixed wing time to get hired (ACA, ASA, Comair) so I got a multi-engine add-on and logged a blistering 108 hours in a Seminole at the Milton-T airport (about 5 miles south of NAS Whiting). In other words, I was hired with a blistering 226 hours of fixed wing time (out of a total of about 3000 hours) - nowadays, it would be difficult to get in with that although the big thing is to have someone walk in your resume. (The 3 airlines above are the regionals most helo-friendly - matter of fact, ACA's assistant chief pilot is a former Navy helo pilot). I did pay for it out of pocket, basically bought a block of 50 hours and split time with another pilot so I logged about 49 hours of PIC time and the rest SIC. Getting hired is all about timing.

 

[flyin_dave71]

Jason-
I can only speak from my own experience but I'm a civilian charter flyer with 2100 hrs(jet & turboprop time mainly), if I had a brain I'd have attempted the military route....but hindsight truly if 20/20. I've had lots of friends that were on their way to initial training class with the majors and were told thanks but the doors are now closed, so I stuck with teaching and got in with charter flying buy luck. In your position, I'd go to and FBO(that is associated with a charter operation, they tend to take CFI's with them for co-pilot work...we do) get up to your CFI ticket and just fly every chance you can and just wait and see what the market for pilots is like in 2-3 years. Good luck with whatever you choose.

As a side note we have a furloughed DC-8 pilot working for us and I personally was handed a resume at the airport from a out-of-work DC-9 Northwest pilot with 9000 some odd hours.