BACN Mishap

[picklesuit]

Engine Failure And Crew Error Responsible For Fatal 2020 Crash in Afghanistan - https://www.npr.org/2021/01/22/9598...sponsible-for-fatal-2020-crash-in-afghanistan

Would be interesting to see if anyone knows the windmilling air-start parameters for the bird, crazy they couldn’t get her relit.

Lots of cautionary tales out there about confirming indications, no fast hands in the cockpit, etc.; sad to lose a crew to a survivable mishap due to compounding their own malfunction.

 

[sevenhelmet]

I'm type rated in the civilian equivalent. USAF E-11A pilots actually go through the same type rating process as civilian pilots, which basically serves as their RTU/FRS. I'm told they even get an FAA type rating at the end. Pretty good deal for those guys.

I won't speculate as to why the crew apparently misdiagnosed the failure and then couldn't get the right engine re-lit; there are many possible reasons.

The aircraft does have a generous envelope for both windmill and APU air starts. The certified envelope is a maximum of 37,000 feet to start the APU (can be left running up to 45K'), and a max of 30,000 feet to airstart an engine (APU or windmill). If the APU is unavailable, altitude can be traded for >270 KIAS if needed to get a windmill start below 30K'.

What I find strange is that they were apparently attempting to reach Kandahar while dual engine out. Minimum drag airspeed is around 200 KIAS clean, with a glide ratio of about 2.5nmi per 1000 feet. So, if you're at 25K' MSL and your airstart isn't working, you have roughly 50 miles of glide distance to 5000' MSL. Those are just AFM numbers and I don't know the terrain elevation where they were, but I think it's fair to say they were within gliding distance of a runway.

My takeaways are no fast hands, know your procedures, and always know your nearest divert. Hard to determine more than that from what is publicly known.

 

[hookskip]

If they were up at FL410 when they shut the engine down they may have experienced engine “Core Lock.” It happened to a CRJ 200 crew on a ferry flight back in 2004.

https://flightsafety.org/asw/july06/asw_jul06_p44-49.pdf

Engine Failure, Aircrew Mistakes Caused Fatal E-11A Crash in Afghanistan | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Aircraft investigators cited pilot error as the main cause for the fatal E-11A crash in Afghanistan in January 2020.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[sevenhelmet]

If they were up at FL410 when they shut the engine down they may have experienced engine “Core Lock.” It happened to a CRJ 200 crew on a ferry flight back in 2004.

That is one possibility. Those details aren't publicly known. What is evident is they shut down an operating engine.

That crew in the 2004 mishap showed remarkably poor judgment, to say the least. I'm pretty sure every ATP ground course uses that as a case study now. One interesting side-effect of that mishap is that it sparked a Part 25 rule-change requiring rotor lock tests of new engines for certification. Transport aircraft engines certified since 2013 or so have had to demonstrate that rotor lock will not impede an airborne restart. That said, the E-11A in question was developed from an aircraft with an older cert basis, so its engines didn't fall into that category.

 

[ARAMP1]

Would be interesting to see if anyone knows the windmilling air-start parameters for the bird, crazy they couldn’t get her relit.

Just so happens, I know an E-11 instructor pilot really well...




The report said "The airspeed and later use of the APU suggest that both windmilling and APU-assisted airstarts were attempted". Squadron bros confirmed that they tried to start it. Could they have been trying to relight the damaged one? Core lock on the good one? What I do know is this was a tough read.

 

[ARAMP1]

What I find strange is that they were apparently attempting to reach Kandahar while dual engine out. Minimum drag airspeed is around 200 KIAS clean, with a glide ratio of about 2.5nmi per 1000 feet. So, if you're at 25K' MSL and your airstart isn't working, you have roughly 50 miles of glide distance to 5000' MSL. Those are just AFM numbers and I don't know the terrain elevation where they were, but I think it's fair to say they were within gliding distance of a runway.

Due to the sensitive nature of what was onboard, it was a royal pain in the ass the few times we needed to divert, especially for the FOBs. KAF was always the primary. A couple times, when I was just chilling up in the bozosphere, I'd plot out how far different places were and if I could make them in a glide. It was just to kill the boredom though. There was never any actual consideration given that we'd have to glide to those places.

 

[taxi1]

This brings back memories.

In our hummer, had gearbox oil pressure go to zero on the right engine off the cat. Gauge failure? There were prior CND gripes on it. So we went to the top of the stack and loitered, waiting for the launch and recovery to complete so we would come in last. NATOPS open, talking to maintenance.

All the sudden the plane started shaking violently. I guess it wasn’t the gauge.

My copilot reached up and snatched the T handle, not waiting for concurrence, against what we brief in the E2. The right one was shut down, literally and figuratively. But to this day, I get a little nagging holy shit feeling thinking about what could have happened instead. Bad gauge on the right and gearbox on the left? Could have happened.

 

[JollyGood]

This brings back memories.

In our hummer, had gearbox oil pressure go to zero on the right engine off the cat. Gauge failure? There were prior CND gripes on it. So we went to the top of the stack and loitered, waiting for the launch and recovery to complete so we would come in last. NATOPS open, talking to maintenance.

All the sudden the plane started shaking violently. I guess it wasn’t the gauge.

My copilot reached up and snatched the T handle, not waiting for concurrence, against what we brief in the E2. The right one was shut down, literally and figuratively. But to this day, I get a little nagging holy shit feeling thinking about what could have happened instead. Bad gauge on the right and gearbox on the left? Could have happened.

I hope there was a strong debrief about CRM after that flight. Was it a 3P, 2P, or CAPC?

 

[taxi1]

It was two qualed JO CAPC's, me being the elder and so the one in charge.

I could write multiple posts about pilots of equal "rank" making the most dangerous crew pairings.

 

[fc2spyguy]

I have had multiple occasions in multiple sims across different airframes where my sim partner attempted to shut down the wrong engine. Scary shit to me, and honestly makes me think that odds are close to 50/50 that someone doesn’t do something stupid in an actual emergency.

 

[squorch2]

TRANSLANT coming home on LHA 4 (whewwwww), 2 SAR birds up doing actual instrument approaches. -2 has a primary computer failure (non memory item) and requires a reboot.

-2 HAC (not at controls) says okay, I got it and cycles the power. To the good computer. Leaving them in the goo with only the backup instruments for a spell.

NO. FAST. HANDS.

 

[Pags]

TRANSLANT coming home on LHA 4 (whewwwww), 2 SAR birds up doing actual instrument approaches. -2 has a primary computer failure (non memory item) and requires a reboot.

-2 HAC (not at controls) says okay, I got it and cycles the power. To the good computer. Leaving them in the goo with only the backup instruments for a spell.

NO. FAST. HANDS.

What about fast hands at the spanish gas pump?

 

[wink]

I have had multiple occasions in multiple sims across different airframes where my sim partner attempted to shut down the wrong engine. Scary shit to me, and honestly makes me think that odds are close to 50/50 that someone doesn’t do something stupid in an actual emergency.

Whoa, multiple times? In all my sim flying, 10 or so years Navy and over 30 airline, I didn't see that once. Of course it happens, that's why this thread. But to have multiple pilots grab the wrong engine on you in simulator training over the years seems an outlier. It must have to do with the actual simulated scenario, the airframe or training.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Whoa, multiple times? In all my sim flying, 10 or so years Navy and over 30 airline, I didn't see that once. Of course it happens, that's why this thread. But to have multiple pilots grab the wrong engine on you in simulator training over the years seems an outlier. It must have to do with the actual simulated scenario, the airframe or training.

The only time I ever saw it was as a MEI giving someone their initial ME training.

 

[squorch2]

What about fast hands at the spanish gas pump?

DID YOU KNOW: Diesel engines do not run on gasoline.