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Career Reflections by Pickle

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
Well, the E-2 RAG teaches you to pass a NATOPS check and land on a boat.. That's about it.

I could teach 2/3Ps as a PC and CAPC (PC = Land Only, CAPC = Boat as well), helos were similar.

Still weird to me. But it is what it is.

We had the same designation in the COD world which I didn't understand either, we learn what we need to at the FRS...the rest is observation and experience. I was a squadron IP and really didn't do much lol. Maybe due to the basic nature of the COD, I don't know.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
There were "Level 4 'Instructor CAPC/CICOs/AWTIs'" but you didn't need one to train a noob.

It was expected that if you were a PC/CAPC/HAC, you were good enough to fly with the newest nugget (granted, their first boat flight was usually with the CO/XO or a DH, but after that first one).
 

webmaster

The Grass is Greener!
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
There were "Level 4 'Instructor CAPC/CICOs/AWTIs'" but you didn't need one to train a noob.

It was expected that if you were a PC/CAPC/HAC, you were good enough to fly with the newest nugget (granted, their first boat flight was usually with the CO/XO or a DH, but after that first one).
PPCs (Level 300s) can take 3Ps and 2Ps out for repos, tactical events, and general dedicated field work (DFW/or night DFW). It is expected that they help keep up the proficiency and increase the experience of the junior pilots in the squadron. What they can not do, is practice any of our emergency procedures or fail systems. For example, practice a no-flap landing, ditch, engine failures on runway or engine out work (2eng or 3 eng landing). The syllabus that pickle is referring to, to make squadron IPs (Level 400s) specifically trains those IPs to respond to predicaments and not let the student put the plane in an unsafe position. I have over 1000 hours instructing, and I still get thrown the curve ball by a student. Not all pilots in our community have what it takes to by instructor pilots, though they all should be striving to attain that level of proficiency.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
I've been dreaming up some new scenarios for you. Don't worry, I'll get you on the schedule for my IPDFW in the Sandbox.
 

webmaster

The Grass is Greener!
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I've been dreaming up some new scenarios for you. Don't worry, I'll get you on the schedule for my IPDFW in the Sandbox.
:D Sigh, you know me so well...

Luckily, you aren't allowed to come to my det site, I will miss you and your shenanigans greatly.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
It was expected that if you were a PC/CAPC/HAC, you were good enough to fly with the newest nugget (granted, their first boat flight was usually with the CO/XO or a DH, but after that first one).

Yeah, exactly. I agree about this "Fleet IP" thing. Being HAC seems to be synonymous with instructor (save for some portions of the Strike syllabus), and the NATOPS guy was just the stan dude for the procedures.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
First CAPC flight in the E-2 was an FCLP emergency period.. I got to take both of the nuggets out (one in the tube, crew swaps on the downwind) and do every flap configuration, single engines (one each side, plus a "CAPC choice" third), no AOA, and such.

Not knocking the differences, but if you can't be trusted to let a 3P fly a simulated single engine that is pre-briefed and they know it's coming, and keep him in his box, why are you a CAPC/CTPC/HAC/PPC again?

Hell, I gave a new guy a full blown NATOPS check (minus the check part) on a Day Fam because he wanted to see it all not in a RAG setting.
 

webmaster

The Grass is Greener!
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Not knocking the differences, but if you can't be trusted to let a 3P fly a simulated single engine that is pre-briefed and they know it's coming, and keep him in his box, why are you a CAPC/CTPC/HAC/PPC again?.
That is the point. The 3P is going to mess up the No Flap/3ENG/2ENG, they are ONLY exposed to the 3ENG in the FRS, on limited # of hops. The No Flap, 2 ENG and 3 ENG Ditch are all new to them in a fleet squadron. They will make mistakes, and dangerous ones. Specifically, IPs are trained, and the squadron invests the extra time and resources in them, to ensure that they know the safe limits of the aircraft and know what is and more importantly ISN'T recoverable in our aircraft. The P3 is a great aircraft and very forgiving, but there are certain regimes of flight, especially slow approaching stall in our aircraft that very bad things can happen. Reference the SIR from Whidbey a couple years ago when they departed controlled flight and over g'd the aircraft and tore open the wing/broke wing struts, etc.

PPCs have the training to go out, execute EVERY mission in the book, land the plane in every emergency setting, but they do not have the qualification yet to teach the emergencies in the aircraft to the upgrading 3p/2p. We as a community let them gain experience as a PPC, running a crew, exposure to the crazy stuff junior pilots do, and then based upon their performance in the aircraft (good stick?, qual early, would he/she make a good IP), then the squadron invests the time/energy into making them an IP. On the backside they become a much better pilot and asset to the squadron. Senior PPCs can elect to let a junior pilot land an emergency, let's say a chips light, etc. But ultimately, the PPC signed for the aircraft and it is his responsibility to bring the aircraft home safely.

You also have to understand that our community has had a decade of hours reductions, and this is the point we are at. We used to routinely let 2Ps sign for the aircraft and go on DFWs. Now we barely have enough hours and aircraft available to meet the mins for our PPCs. During my first tour we had PPCs leaving with 1800 hours, now they are lucky to leave with 1100.

John
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
Wow.. I did not realize 30 went so thin on the EPs..

If the E-2 RAG skimps on anything, it was tactics (2-3 flights, often waived, no more than a cursory "see the dome? the nerds use that to do shit. Keep it level") but we had seen every engine/flap/prop EP more times than we ever wanted to by the time we went to the boat. I'd say I had more 1 engine landings in the E-2 than 2 engine landings in the E-2 at the RAG.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I understand it's just a different way of doing things...different from many other communities within the aviation side...but something none of us are going to change. What I do find kind of amusing is the VP system is very similar to the AF Pavehawk system. A buddy of mine (and former Navy helo guys) was in town on a det and we were talking about some of the AF-isms. He was telling me about such policies as you can't pull an engine back unless you're with a current IP.

So...there you go. VP=Air Force. My work here is done.
 

81montedriver

Well-Known Member
pilot
I understand it's just a different way of doing things...different from many other communities within the aviation side...but something none of us are going to change. What I do find kind of amusing is the VP system is very similar to the AF Pavehawk system. A buddy of mine (and former Navy helo guys) was in town on a det and we were talking about some of the AF-isms. He was telling me about such policies as you can't pull an engine back unless you're with a current IP.

So...there you go. VP=Air Force. My work here is done.

This how it's done in kc-130 fleet squadrons as well. Only the squadron NATOPs instructors can do so.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
That is the point. The 3P is going to mess up the No Flap/3ENG/2ENG, they are ONLY exposed to the 3ENG in the FRS, on limited # of hops. The No Flap, 2 ENG and 3 ENG Ditch are all new to them in a fleet squadron. They will make mistakes, and dangerous ones. Specifically, IPs are trained, and the squadron invests the extra time and resources in them, to ensure that they know the safe limits of the aircraft and know what is and more importantly ISN'T recoverable in our aircraft. The P3 is a great aircraft and very forgiving, but there are certain regimes of flight, especially slow approaching stall in our aircraft that very bad things can happen. Reference the SIR from Whidbey a couple years ago when they departed controlled flight and over g'd the aircraft and tore open the wing/broke wing struts, etc.

PPCs have the training to go out, execute EVERY mission in the book, land the plane in every emergency setting, but they do not have the qualification yet to teach the emergencies in the aircraft to the upgrading 3p/2p. We as a community let them gain experience as a PPC, running a crew, exposure to the crazy stuff junior pilots do, and then based upon their performance in the aircraft (good stick?, qual early, would he/she make a good IP), then the squadron invests the time/energy into making them an IP. On the backside they become a much better pilot and asset to the squadron. Senior PPCs can elect to let a junior pilot land an emergency, let's say a chips light, etc. But ultimately, the PPC signed for the aircraft and it is his responsibility to bring the aircraft home safely.

You also have to understand that our community has had a decade of hours reductions, and this is the point we are at. We used to routinely let 2Ps sign for the aircraft and go on DFWs. Now we barely have enough hours and aircraft available to meet the mins for our PPCs. During my first tour we had PPCs leaving with 1800 hours, now they are lucky to leave with 1100.

John

I realize that it's different strokes for different communities, but after reading your explanation it's even more amazing (surprising) how you guys work. I realize that we in the 60 world aren't tactics gurus but the nugget can still land the helo if the world goes to shit with some ep and the other pilot is no longer able to fly.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
I realize that we in the 60 world aren't tactics gurus but the nugget can still land the helo if the world goes to shit with some ep and the other pilot is no longer able to fly.
I think it has to do with the "dreaded 3 engine landing" mentality. Both airframes (KC-130 and P-3) have four engines. Every other example is a 2 engine a/c. An engine loss in a 60, 46, C-2, E-2, F/A-18, etc... is a serious god-damn deal. So by the time you're signing for it, you better be able to handle it. Hell, they can have two engines shit, and be at where we're at in takeoff configuration...
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
At one point someone (forget who, but it was a PPC) tried to tell me that losing 1 engine in a P-3 was way worse than losing one engine in the E-2.
 
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