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121 Die in Greek Air Crash after co-pilot found slumped on controls and no pilot
- Thread starter virtu050
- Start date
mules83 said:
I've heard the same thing, only about commercial airliners in general. In addition to the Gimli Glider in 1983, there was an Airbus A330 that ran out of fuel over the Atlantic en route to Lisbon, Portugal - Air TransAt Flight 236 on August 24, 2001. They glided the plane to a landing at Terceira Island in the Azores. The incident had no fatalities, but there were some minor injuries. Google it for more info.
I'll glide it to where ever before I ditch it in the ocean, that's for sure!
True the ATP written ask 121 FAR questions (or 135 depending on which you take), but I don't think it really gives someone without any practical 121 or 135 experience a clue about the real world. Funny thing about all the 727 W&B questions on the ATP written - since starting to fly commercially, I've never done a W&B. Don't even know how to do one on the DC-10. At HAL, the load close out gurus did it. All we got was a trim setting. At Scenic, the CSA do it when they manifest the flight. The ATP written gives you aeronautical theory knowledge, but not practical commercial ops knowledge.wink said:
Flying the mighty Twin Otter to the Grand Canyon everyday, I see this all the time. It seems like once a week I have some pax hand me his business card and ATP while boarding. The card usually says something like "Dick Hurtz, Attorney at Law, Airline Transport Pilot" or "Mike Hunt, MD, ATP". Than they proceed to offer their services as a copilot or ask if they can fly the plane. The conversation usually goes like this:
Pax: Say, I'm an ATP - you need a copilot
Me: No sir, I already have one
Pax: Is he an ATP?
Me: No sir, he has a commercial license
Pax: Well I'm an ATP with over 2000 hours in my 310, I think I'm more qualified to fly this plane than him. Let him sit in back.
Me: Sorry sir, that's against the FARs. You don't have the required training or check rides.
Pax: What are you talking about? I'm an ATP! I'm more qualified than him.
Last month I had a pax with an ATP demand that I have my main gear tire pressures checked. I told him that the Otter has balloon tires and they always looked flat, but they were actually fine. He insisted I get a mechanic NOW or he was going to call the FAA and report me - he was an ATP and knew what he was talking about. I had the mechanic come out with a tire gauge and the tire servicing chart. We showed him that the tire pressures were okay and than I denied him boarding. When he got pissed and asked why, I told him that I wasn't going to spend the next few weeks waiting for some BS investigation by the FAA because my clueless know-it-all pax wrote them claiming I did something wrong. He told his wife to come-on, they were going in to complain and ask for their money back. She told him to pound sand, she was going to see the Grand Canyon. Just because he stuck his foot in his mouth, she wasn't going to miss out. She than told me that he pulls this stuff every time they get on an airline. Thank God I have a CP and DO who backed me all the way when the head of customer service wanted my butt.
Something about flying a 19 seat turboprop without a jet way, cockpit door and pax access to the pilots that brings out the loonies. I can't wait to get a door again! (Hopefully soon, I just interviewed with Allegiant to fly their MD-80s. Hopefully I lied well enough that they really do believe I won't bail back to Hawaiian as soon as I'm recalled. Let's see - vastly better pay, work rules, QOL and a retirement plan. Yup, I won't go back. They spent at least half the interview on this topic so I'm not too optimistic about getting the job. But they do have a bunch of AA/TWA, UAL and US Airways furloughees working there.)
mules83 said:
nittany03 said:I'm absolutely unqualified to judge, but with the long high-aspect-ratio wing I wouldn't be surprised.
That's correct, enthusiastic and knowledge-seeking Grasshoppers .... the B747-200 glide ratio is on the order of 17.7, call it 18. So if at @ 36,000 feet you flew through that volcanic ash cloud at night and lost all four engines --- it's happened --- you could glide nearly 120 miles if my math is correct. The Concorde, (which yours truly checked out on as a S/O), is only 8, by comparision. But then, when the Cessna 150 has a L/D of only @ 7.5 and the C172 clocks in around 9-10 .... you gotta ask yourself: Do you feel lucky???
One of the biggest challenges for the new B747 driver is to get down without embarrassing himself too badly. New guys consistently over/under estimate the Whale's gliding capability when planning their descent. This usually results in having to take a turn to descend (ooops) or throwing the gear down too early to make a crossing altitude or assigned altitude. The B747 landing gear is the world's most effective speed brake, by the way. Then, the 747 "nuggets" go through a period of "overcorrection" where they go the other way and start down too early --- thus wasting fuel and, once again, embarrassing themselves. It's very quiet in the cockpit while driving in for those 30 extra miles @ 10,000.
Heck, I've started down on the SADDE SIX into LAX on more than one occasion and never brought the power up off flight idle until I went into reverse thrust on touch-down. So many short-cut turns and "speed-up's" from ATC. Now THAT's impressive L/D'ing gliding .... The Boeing 747 .... the thinking man's glider ... who could know ???
UPDATE: Cyprus Crash Victims Didn't Inhale Carbon Monoxide
F[font=Verdana,Sans-Serif]riday August 19, 3:01 PM EDT[/font]
[font=Verdana,Sans-Serif](Updates throughout with details, Helios announcing its two Boeing 737s will be fully inspected next week)
ATHENS (AP)--Greek coroners investigating the crash of a Cypriot airliner that killed all 121 people on board ruled out Friday that some may have been made unconscious by carbon monoxide, but were still examining whether other fumes knocked out the crew and passengers.
Tests were carried out on the co-pilot, three female flight attendants, an infant, and a random adult, Athens' chief coroner Fillipos Koutsaftis said.
"This was the fastest test and the most secure," Koutsaftis said after meeting Justice Minister Anastasios Papaligouras. "We are still doing tests for other gases, poisons, drugs and alcohol."
He said it would be another few days before the completion of more toxicology tests that may determine if something else could have left passengers and crew unconscious before the Helios Airways Boeing (BA) 737-300 slammed into a mountainside north of Athens on Sunday.
There has been speculation that an electrical fire or some other cause could have flooded the cabin with carbon monoxide, or another gas, causing those on board to lose consciousness.
"I don't know and can't rule out" that something else could have been responsible, Koutsaftis said.
Crews recovered 118 bodies from the crash site and were still searching for the remaining three. Parts of a voice recorder were found near the burned wreckage, Greece's deputy fire chief Andreas Kois said. They were sent to France's Inquiry and Analysis Bureau in Paris for examination. It was uncertain if the data on the voice recorder was salvageable, officials have said.
Investigators have already sent the other black box - the flight data recorder - to France for analysis. During their initial search of the wreckage, investigators had only found the cover and some parts of the voice recorder, which tapes the last 30 minutes of conversation in the cockpit.
Chief investigator Akrivis Tsolakis declined to comment Friday on Greek media reports that preliminary data from the flight data recorder showed that the plane - flying from Larnaca, Cyprus - ran out of fuel minutes before the crash.
Autopsy results on 26 bodies identified so far have shown that some passengers and at least four crew members - including the co-pilot - were alive, but not necessarily conscious, when the plane went down. The body of the plane's German pilot has not been identified, and it is unclear whether he is one of the three still missing.
An air traffic control diagram showed the plane had flown on automatic pilot to the Greek capital's international airport, Tsolakis said Thursday. But it was flying at 34,000 feet and turned south into a holding pattern over the island of Kea after passing over the airport. More than an hour later, it changed course again before crashing near the capital.
Tsolakis said the automatic pilot had been programmed to fly the plane to Athens airport, and it was unclear how or why it was disengaged.
The strange circumstances of the flight - and disturbing scenes witnessed by the F-16 pilots scrambled to intercept the flight - have baffled authorities. Officials have said there are no indications of sabotage or terrorism. The two F-16 fighter pilots, who first established visual contact with the plane while it was flying above Kea, reported seeing the co-pilot slumped over the controls, apparently unconscious.
They said the pilot was not in his seat, and they also later saw what appeared to be two people trying to regain control of the plane. Oxygen masks were seen dangling from the ceiling of the passenger cabin, the government said, citing the F-16 pilots.
Tsolakis said investigators were still examining the possibility that those on board were knocked unconscious by sudden cabin decompression.
Separately, a Helios Airways flight with 177 passengers aboard made an unplanned landing at London's Stansted Airport on Friday after the pilot reported a mechanical problem, said Jane Johnston, a spokeswoman for Britain's National Air Traffic Service. The Boeing 737 landed without incident. Helios Airways announced in Nicosia, Cyprus, Friday that it would have its two Boeing 737s subjected to a full technical inspection from Aug. 21 to 24.
[/font]
[font=Verdana,Sans-Serif](Updates throughout with details, Helios announcing its two Boeing 737s will be fully inspected next week)
ATHENS (AP)--Greek coroners investigating the crash of a Cypriot airliner that killed all 121 people on board ruled out Friday that some may have been made unconscious by carbon monoxide, but were still examining whether other fumes knocked out the crew and passengers.
Tests were carried out on the co-pilot, three female flight attendants, an infant, and a random adult, Athens' chief coroner Fillipos Koutsaftis said.
"This was the fastest test and the most secure," Koutsaftis said after meeting Justice Minister Anastasios Papaligouras. "We are still doing tests for other gases, poisons, drugs and alcohol."
He said it would be another few days before the completion of more toxicology tests that may determine if something else could have left passengers and crew unconscious before the Helios Airways Boeing (BA) 737-300 slammed into a mountainside north of Athens on Sunday.
There has been speculation that an electrical fire or some other cause could have flooded the cabin with carbon monoxide, or another gas, causing those on board to lose consciousness.
"I don't know and can't rule out" that something else could have been responsible, Koutsaftis said.
Crews recovered 118 bodies from the crash site and were still searching for the remaining three. Parts of a voice recorder were found near the burned wreckage, Greece's deputy fire chief Andreas Kois said. They were sent to France's Inquiry and Analysis Bureau in Paris for examination. It was uncertain if the data on the voice recorder was salvageable, officials have said.
Investigators have already sent the other black box - the flight data recorder - to France for analysis. During their initial search of the wreckage, investigators had only found the cover and some parts of the voice recorder, which tapes the last 30 minutes of conversation in the cockpit.
Chief investigator Akrivis Tsolakis declined to comment Friday on Greek media reports that preliminary data from the flight data recorder showed that the plane - flying from Larnaca, Cyprus - ran out of fuel minutes before the crash.
Autopsy results on 26 bodies identified so far have shown that some passengers and at least four crew members - including the co-pilot - were alive, but not necessarily conscious, when the plane went down. The body of the plane's German pilot has not been identified, and it is unclear whether he is one of the three still missing.
An air traffic control diagram showed the plane had flown on automatic pilot to the Greek capital's international airport, Tsolakis said Thursday. But it was flying at 34,000 feet and turned south into a holding pattern over the island of Kea after passing over the airport. More than an hour later, it changed course again before crashing near the capital.
Tsolakis said the automatic pilot had been programmed to fly the plane to Athens airport, and it was unclear how or why it was disengaged.
The strange circumstances of the flight - and disturbing scenes witnessed by the F-16 pilots scrambled to intercept the flight - have baffled authorities. Officials have said there are no indications of sabotage or terrorism. The two F-16 fighter pilots, who first established visual contact with the plane while it was flying above Kea, reported seeing the co-pilot slumped over the controls, apparently unconscious.
They said the pilot was not in his seat, and they also later saw what appeared to be two people trying to regain control of the plane. Oxygen masks were seen dangling from the ceiling of the passenger cabin, the government said, citing the F-16 pilots.
Tsolakis said investigators were still examining the possibility that those on board were knocked unconscious by sudden cabin decompression.
Separately, a Helios Airways flight with 177 passengers aboard made an unplanned landing at London's Stansted Airport on Friday after the pilot reported a mechanical problem, said Jane Johnston, a spokeswoman for Britain's National Air Traffic Service. The Boeing 737 landed without incident. Helios Airways announced in Nicosia, Cyprus, Friday that it would have its two Boeing 737s subjected to a full technical inspection from Aug. 21 to 24.
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