Why are you Leaving?

[ssnspoon]

By no means am I trying to convince you to stay, but I do have some questions about your perceptions of post-military employment.

Specifically...

1) I have no idea where I will be my next tour, let alone 20 years from now in the Navy. While if I stayed that long the job would undoubtedly involve me wearing a bird (or else I will be mandatory told I have to retire), there are a number of O-6 positions that are relatively unique in terms of responsibility and scope. I just find it odd that you think a military career is 'safe,' when I've talked to quite a few Sailors who think that most civilian careers would be much more stable - no moving to wherever the Navy sends you, no deployments, no underway shifts, no surges, no sudden weekend emergencies, etc. I tend to agree with them.

2) The military is one of the few careers that mandates promotion. This is a double-edged sword in that you can do well for yourself within the system and get promoted, or you can be told to find another career if you fail to select. Civilian jobs have no such guarantee. If the thought of serving in the Pentagon in 20 years scares you because you'll be doing the "same thing," how do you feel about the possibility of holding the same exact position for 10-15 years, and possibly more?

3) Do you really think that 99% of the people working for any given large company are anything other than indispensible? There are a few key players within these organizations, but by and large the company will continue to exist without you. Or are you looking to make your way with a startup, which could have a much higher payoff but entails much more risk?

I'm not trying to rain on your ambitions, it just seems like your reasons for leaving involves best-case planning: You believe that you are exceptionally talented, that someone is going to pay you for that talent, and that you will have the opportunity to make a large impact on your organization. I'm just curious what you plan to do if that doesn't happen, or if other issues like marriage/children make taking certain career risks, like leaving a company who has passed you over multiple times for the next position, unpalatable to you?

What I get out of Ben's comment is this (and my problem with the system too). It become obvious to most, at some point or another in their career, that they can excel or suck, and for the most part continue. Obviously, most recently we have had a hiccup in the O-3 to O-4 selection process. But I bet you in the coming few boards, maybe even the next one, since we under selected in aviation...the bottom dweller, mouth breather will have a better chance of selection. If you are a middle of the road, does his job but doesn't stretch it too much, you have a reasonable chance of continuing for a career...that is "safe". Now look at it from the hard charger standpoint, no matter how hard he works, he is still promoting with the same percentages, at the same time (ignoring the promotion phasing plan) as the last guy to get selected on that board. That is most likely VERY demoralizing for the #1 guy...and I bet even more so for millennial's.

 

[Recovering LSO]

It become obvious to most, at some point or another in their career, that they can excel or suck, and for the most part continue.

Continue? To some extent. Continue flying and competing for "good jobs"? No.

That is most likely VERY demoralizing for the #1 guy

Until the #1 guy gets the choice set of orders, gets to continue flying and has more options available to him.

and I bet even more so for millennial's.

That's a bit of straw man. If your point is that people resent not getting recognized - ok, but I think it's safe to say that emotion transcends age.

 

[ben4prez]

By no means am I trying to convince you to stay, but I do have some questions about your perceptions of post-military employment.

Specifically...

1) I have no idea where I will be my next tour, let alone 20 years from now in the Navy. While if I stayed that long the job would undoubtedly involve me wearing a bird (or else I will be mandatory told I have to retire), there are a number of O-6 positions that are relatively unique in terms of responsibility and scope. I just find it odd that you think a military career is 'safe,' when I've talked to quite a few Sailors who think that most civilian careers would be much more stable - no moving to wherever the Navy sends you, no deployments, no underway shifts, no surges, no sudden weekend emergencies, etc. I tend to agree with them.

2) The military is one of the few careers that mandates promotion. This is a double-edged sword in that you can do well for yourself within the system and get promoted, or you can be told to find another career if you fail to select. Civilian jobs have no such guarantee. If the thought of serving in the Pentagon in 20 years scares you because you'll be doing the "same thing," how do you feel about the possibility of holding the same exact position for 10-15 years, and possibly more?

3) Do you really think that 99% of the people working for any given large company are anything other than indispensible? There are a few key players within these organizations, but by and large the company will continue to exist without you. Or are you looking to make your way with a startup, which could have a much higher payoff but entails much more risk?

I'm not trying to rain on your ambitions, it just seems like your reasons for leaving involves best-case planning: You believe that you are exceptionally talented, that someone is going to pay you for that talent, and that you will have the opportunity to make a large impact on your organization. I'm just curious what you plan to do if that doesn't happen, or if other issues like marriage/children make taking certain career risks, like leaving a company who has passed you over multiple times for the next position, unpalatable to you?

I appreciate your observations.

To counter, it seems like all of the reasons why you think I shouldn't leave involve worst case planning: I have no value to bring to a non-military organization, no one will pay me more than I could make in the military, and I will not be able to make any impact on any organization. In fact, you might be right. But I don't think so. I'd rather dare great things trying to somehow get in the 1 percent and utterly fail than to never try at all. I may be delusional, but I'm gonna give it a shot. If and when it fails, I'll still be in the reserves -- and have a broad civlian network to draw from to find new opportuities!

As i mentioned before, I have no bitterness, and in fact, am forever and deeply grateful for the opportunities I've been given in the service. It was the absolute right thing for me to do with the past 10 years of my life. I've been able to mentor sailors, defend our country, fly fighters, work for incredible bosses, and build multiple military innovation organization from scratch that are thriving and growing. It's simply time to do something else!

 

[ben4prez]

One thing you need to understand now before you get out is that you will ALWAYS be replaceable. You may end up being a bigger cog in the wheel than you are now and you may bring a very specific skill set to the organization that you work for, but never think you are indispensable. Everyone can be replaced.

Don't confuse this with not being important to the mission or contributing to the mission on a large scale. That is not what I'm talking about.

Noted. And I generally agree, with some exceptions. Sims, Boyd, Mahan, Musk, Brin, Jobs, Beethoven, among many others...all indispensible. No one could do what they did. In fact, one could argue history is defined by indispensible people, and those that refuse to accept traditional limitations. How many companies fail when the founder leaves (disregarding the lack of foresight in training a replacement)? Will 99.9999% of folks ever reach that? no. Will anybody on this forum reach that? Likely not. But it doesnt mean they don't exist.

 

[nittany03]

That is most likely VERY demoralizing for the #1 guy...and I bet even more so for millennial's.

Can we please, as a society, collectively drop the "millenials are a new thing we have to deal with" thing? The oldest so-called "millenials" are over 30. The world has not come crashing down.

 

[PhrogLoop]

Can we please, as a society, collectively drop the "millenials are a new thing we have to deal with" thing?

Sure, we can drop it (at our own peril). Leadership, to me, is mostly about serving your people and you can't serve your people without understanding their motivations. To be fair, every generation is a new thing to deal with. But Millenials and younger are much more likely to be vocal about their desires and frustrations than earlier generations who were more likely to grin and bear their crosses. And they also have access to and mastery of media. This is something we need to understand and adapt to if we want to keep them and motivate even a fraction of them to suck it up long enough to command ships, squadrons, and fleets.

 

[azguy]

Now look at it from the hard charger standpoint, no matter how hard he works, he is still promoting with the same percentages, at the same time (ignoring the promotion phasing plan) as the last guy to get selected on that board. That is most likely VERY demoralizing for the #1 guy...and I bet even more so for millennial's.

I agree with most of what you've said, but I take issue with this. Yes, we're all "paid the same," but people that are outstanding at their job in the Navy have many benefits - tangible and intangible- that the #2MP guy just doesn't. For a Type A personality, just getting that #1 will bring a level of satisfaction the bottom guy isn't getting.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Leadership, to me, is mostly about serving your people

Too what extent?

 

[Spekkio]

A military career is significantly safer as it applies to career timing, promotion, and pay. Anyone who has done their homework knows when they should expect the next promotion and to a certain degree, the level of responsibility they will have at any given point in their career. It's not all that difficult to map our your career in general terms over the next 6, 10, or even 15 years, hence the predictability. Not so on the civilian side. Also, the risk of the military to come up to you one morning and tell you your services are no longer required are significantly lower than in the civilian sector. In many respects, there are a lot of unknowns that go with a civilian career and that keeps people in the military, both officer and enlisted. People absolutely do get comfortable and even those that are miserable, stay in...because it's comfortable and familiar.

While I agree that you generally know when your statutory and admin boards are, you don't exactly know if you will screen. Additionally, even if you do screen you still don't know what assignment you will get. The duties, responsibilities, and missions vary significantly between coasts, platforms, etc.

You're right about the no deployments, surges, or underway shifts. However, you can move the same or even more in a civilian job. Most folks don't realize that. And the no weekend emergencies thing...yeah, definitely not true. Now more than ever, people are tied to their jobs by these little devices called smart phones. Think you're gonna get out of the Navy and be able to punch out at 5pm at your next gig? You might be able to get away with it depending on what you decide to do. But not likely.

I think that you are over-stating the moving thing in the civilian sector. The vast majority of private sector civilian jobs will not require their employees to relocate. Most people who do relocate are people who are between jobs, not within jobs. Even then, a recent survey found that just 20% of people laid off in 2011 relocated to find work.

I will concede that many companies expect salaried employees to 'go the extra mile' and work longer days. That's the consequence of our 24/7 service economy. However, the probability of being suddenly told you have to work 14 hours on Sat and Sun to catch up on work because you had a safety standdown for [insert list of stupid things Sailors do] on Mon and Tues is 0. Again, outside a select few professions, most of which are emergency workers or well compensated executives, you won't be ordered to come in on your weekend and holiday days off, even if you do have to work 10, 12 hour days. There are also companies, like Apple, that are moving in the opposite direction - you set your own schedule as long as the work gets done. Once in a while that leads to longer days or weekends because a deadline is approaching, but more often than not it leads to sub 8 hour days... This is a guy who is heading a programming dept.

 

[Recovering LSO]

@Spekkio Ben may have plans to be his own boss? See the URL in his signature? It certainly has risks, of which he's identified. But should you be concerned about a guy who compares himself to:

Sims, Boyd, Mahan, Musk, Brin, Jobs, Beethoven, among many others

Do your points remain valid for a guy that isn't planning on going to work for, in your example, Apple?

 

[Spekkio]

To counter, it seems like all of the reasons why you think I shouldn't leave involve worst case planning: I have no value to bring to a non-military organization, no one will pay me more than I could make in the military, and I will not be able to make any impact on any organization...

No, I am not trying to convince you to stay, and certainly not by 'worst case planning.' If I were to convince anyone to stay, it would be for the possibility of command at sea. If that's not something that you want, then being a Naval URL officer isn't for you.

However, there is a big spectrum between being irreplaceable and having no value. So the worst case is that you completely misjudged your talents and find yourself perpetually unemployed. That's having no value to any civilian organization. I don't think that would happen to most officers. What I was talking about is the middle-of-the-road case -- someone pays you a salary of somewhere between $60-90k, you cap out at middle or upper-middle management, and after 10ish years of the same thing you want a change... but now you have kids, the new job requires a temporary paycut and/or relocation, etc. that makes jumping ship a little more difficult. That you look around and while someone is willing to pay you for your talents, you realize that you are not as indispensible to the company as you'd like to be.

 

[Spekkio]

@Spekkio Ben may have plans to be his own boss? See the URL in his signature? It certainly has risks, of which he's identified. But should you be concerned about a guy who compares himself to...Do your points remain valid for a guy that isn't planning on going to work for, in your example, Apple?

That really depends on whether his business idea(s) pan out or not. Even if they do, whether he decides to keep trucking or sell to an established big player for a handsome ransom and executive position.

Concern isn't the word I'd use, more like intrigue. The reasons he gave for leaving are not the typical reasons people tend to give.

 

[PhrogLoop]

Too what extent?

My philosophy of servant leadership was pretty nicely described by Lao-Tzu:
"The highest type of ruler is one of whose existence the people are barely aware. Next comes one whom they love and praise. Next comes one whom they fear. Next comes one whom they despise and defy.
When you are lacking in faith, Others will be unfaithful to you.
The Sage is self-effacing and scanty of words. When his task is accomplished and things have been completed, All the people say, ‘We ourselves have achieved it!’"

 

[Recovering LSO]

That's a good outlook. I offered the link to Sal because the officer quoted in the essay seems to have gone WAAAY to far with his accommodation.

 

[CommodoreMid]

No, I am not trying to convince you to stay, and certainly not by 'worst case planning.' If I were to convince anyone to stay, it would be for the possibility of command at sea. If that's not something that you want, then being a Naval URL officer isn't for you.

And reasons like yours are why we have no trust in senior leadership, amongst others. The overall perspective of, well, you don't know if you want to be a skipper, so fuck you and your URL dreams is incredibly pervasive. As a JO on shore duty I love being an NFO and I want to continue doing NFO things, both on my next sea tour (hopefully) as a super JO and then a DH because I will primarily get to function as an NFO. I don't know if command is right for me because of the shit I see front offices having to deal with, but according to you and senior leaders with your attitude I should get out of URL. Maybe I'll change my mind and if I get a #1 DH ticket I'll be all about command screen, but as of now my goal is to set myself up to make my community better as an NFO at any level of service, and I'm not entirely convinced command is the way to make that happen.