Why are you Leaving?

[B.D. Drummond]

Supposedly, several of the recent 04 selectees have indicated a desire to turn in their papers and leave.
My question is Why? I'm sure there are good reasons and not to be judgmental just curious.

 

[EODDave]

Not much "supposedly" about it. Guys are leaving because they are not happy doing what they are doing. Not much of a mystery really. Now that there are more options on the outside, guys are less willing to put up with things that are bothering them.

 

[wlawr005]

Gross speculation here, but when I was coming up as a young enlisted guy I was always told "if you don't like something...do well, make rank, and change it when you're in charge"

As we saw on the last promotion board, guys are doing they're part...they're doing well and doing everything they can to make rank. However, a good number of them still didn't get promoted.

Additionally, those that did get promoted feel that although they DID make rank, they aren't going to be given the authority or latitude to implement the changes they see fit. It comes back to the trust in leadership trusting you (if that makes sense).

I would also guess there are some who feel leaving proves how serious they are about the above speculation.

Plus there's always one or two guys who married money or are networked really well and are simply tired of making pennies deploying for the man...

 

[ben4prez]

The second slide of this presentation has the results of an informal survey I conducted among all the VFA DH-selects. it outlines why people said they were staying or leaving. The first slide indicates the retention numbers straight from BUPERs.

For me personally, as i've reflected, I've realized I've been able to do everything I possibly could have wanted to do, and been given incredle latitude to make a big difference at a young age. My leadership has been outstanding at all levels (with a few duds along the way), and I've gotten to fly fighters off carriers.

But ultimately, I'm leaving because I dont want to deploy for 8-10 months at a time with a young family, and there is a big world with incredible opportunity i want to explore on my own terms.

 

[Brett327]

Ben, out of curiosity on the deployment issue...

Did you (or others you surveyed) feel like there was a bait & switch going on WRT cruise lengths (6mo vs 10mo) and that's why you're no longer willing to do them when they impact your family and QOL?

or

Do you (or others you surveyed) feel like you didn't know what you were getting into WRT the amount of time you'd spend away from home?

Did your own priorities change once you started a family and realized the impact of our current OPTEMPO?

My presumption is that you and the folks who are just making or up for O4 all joined post 9/11 and haven't ever really seen the 6 month cruises of yeasteryear. I think these questions/topics would add to the conversation if you're willing to share.

 

[Fallonflyr]

This cycle has been going on forever. Guys see the reality that their best Squadron flying days are over, they have young kids so their bubble is getting bigger, and the airlines are hiring again.

 

[robav8r]

Ben, out of curiosity on the deployment issue...

Did you (or others you surveyed) feel like there was a bait & switch going on WRT cruise lengths (6mo vs 10mo)?

This is a HUGE elephant that no one is addressing (officially) and one that I know is affecting career decisions for O's & E's alike across the spectrum of designators and platforms.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

My presumption is that you and the folks who are just making or up for O4 all joined post 9/11 and haven't ever really seen the 6 month cruises of yeasteryear. I think these questions/topics would add to the conversation if you're willing to share.

Interesting thing I never had a deployment longer than 6 months after 9/11, I guess just luck of the draw, I know many enlisted that left or are planning to leave for the same reasons people are stating here.

 

[wiseguy04]

I think many of those getting out now (voluntarily) have been meaning to do so for a while, for all the reasons stated above. A big reason they have stayed in until now (other than MSR) was due to a stifled economy on the outside, leaving them no other options. This enticed people to endure conditions in the Navy a bit longer than they normally would have under better economic conditions.

However, that is no longer the case. Civilian hiring has picked up (e.g. Airlines), and now that better options exist on the outside, people are starting to vote with their feet. Combine this with 8-10 month deployments and more people in the Navy will begin to perceive the "grass is greener" in the civilian world (no deployments, choice of location, quality of life, etc).

 

[wink]

Ben, out of curiosity on the deployment issue...

Did you (or others you surveyed) feel like there was a bait & switch going on WRT cruise lengths (6mo vs 10mo) and that's why you're no longer willing to do them when they impact your family and QOL?

or

Do you (or others you surveyed) feel like you didn't know what you were getting into WRT the amount of time you'd spend away from home?

Did your own priorities change once you started a family and realized the impact of our current OPTEMPO?

My presumption is that you and the folks who are just making or up for O4 all joined post 9/11 and haven't ever really seen the 6 month cruises of yeasteryear. I think these questions/topics would add to the conversation if you're willing to share.

All valid questions ( except for the question about priorities changing once starting a family, duh ) and I agree with your presumption. But, that line of questioning implies that OPTEMPO will return to something less onerous in the near future or that deployment extensions, the bait and switch, will never happen once we get past current combat deployments. I don't expect any of these guys, given their level of distrust in leadership, the current state of world affairs, and decreasing size of the Navy, will believe that.

 

[e6bflyer]

Not much "supposedly" about it. Guys are leaving because they are not happy doing what they are doing. Not much of a mystery really. Now that there are more options on the outside, guys are less willing to put up with things that are bothering them.

This hit the nail on the head. Big picture...this is the problem.

 

[smoke_screen]

I'm a broken record but it's the totality... in order:

-IAs and even the basic concept of IAs
-The sensibilities & culture of professional Millennials
-The timing of these YGs both commissioning into a protracted war and the booming hiring economy at their exit point
-It's not just airlines - all spouses job prospects are currently peaking - both can get out and get 6 figures or close, at worst
-Effective social media on outside (Linkedin, etc) making ambitious people feel like they are treading water & lagging behind their peers on outside
-Effective social media on outside (Linkedin, Facebook, etc) making it easier to find a good job or contact reliable but previously unknown advisors
(*** Approx 2-3 active duty people per week reach out to me on Linkedin - this was not possible or mainstream until recently ***)
-Risk averse leadership within the navy
-The increasing importance of gamesmanship in navy promotion: tickets, wickets, sequester, disassociated, 8-yr MSAs, etc.
-The concern that congress will mess with retirement
-Administration of the bonus

 

[lowflier03]

http://greenieboard.blogspot.com He's got a pretty good summary going.

“The first step is to admit there is a problem - it's not a perceived lack of trust - it's an actual lack of trust. It's not a marketing problem - it's an operations problem. To say it's a perception problem makes the problem about the subordinates, rather than the Flag Officers / "senior leaders" who need to be looking introspectively at both their decision-making process and decisions and how both may contribute to the actual lack of trust.”

 

[Uncle Fester]

Why did I get out?
- My community had an abysmal rate for DH screen - something like 30% on their first look at that time, as I recall - because the economy was in the shitter and no one was getting out.
- Because of my couple years of Shoe time I was not on the 'normal' career gates for my YG and the detailers couldn't even agree whether my Shoe tour counted as a Disassoc.
- Cruise lengths were ramping up...Mrs Fester's Air Wing had already been hit with the quick-turnaround shot in '07 and it was only getting worse (i.e., to about where it is today).
- Fester 2.0 was born while we were on shore duty and I was enjoying being a daddy who was home for dinner every night.

So, best case was I got picked up on my first look in April and HAD to be back in a squadron by October to catch up with my YG. Frankly, despite the fact that I worked with and for some really shit-hot DHs in the Fleet, their job didn't look in the remotest bit appealing to me. Always on the road or on the Boat. Even when you were home, you weren't home. Cruises were getting longer. And to what end? To maybe possibly be a skipper someday? Again, I had the great fortune to work for some really awesome front offices, some of the best dudes I've ever met in the Navy, and you couldn't pay me enough to take their job. All the responsibility and no authority - 'success' consisted of not screwing up before your relief arrived.

And that was best case. Assuming I didn't get picked up first look, what are we going to do with you for a year until your next look? Not going to let you hang around P'cola any more...enjoy Bagram, asshole.

The Bonus for aviators isn't good enough to tempt people into staying in...my friends I know who took it didn't stay for the money; more like, "I'm staying in anyway, may as well take the money".

So, to sum up: zero career flexibility, crushing and unpredictable deployments with no end in sight, and lack of a desirable reward for staying in (career or monetary) for the hardships demanded. Between the Reserves and my civilian job with the Iron Works I've stayed plugged in to what's happening to my friends who stayed on AD, and I've seen nothing to make me regret my decision since. Yes, the pay and benefits are pretty good on AD and the grass is most definitely not always greener. But what the Navy is doing is spending hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars recruiting and training people, then doing absolutely nothing to try and retain the talent and training. Find me any business anywhere that would spend three years training someone, get maybe 6 years' return on that training (less if they don't go to a production shore billet), and then let them go with only the most half-assed attempts to keep them.

 

[wink]

Find me any business anywhere that would spend three years training someone, get maybe 6 years' return on that training (less if they don't go to a production shore billet), and then let them go with only the most half-assed attempts to keep them.

Not to diminish your very valid points, but I believe this one is a bit off course. I am pretty certain that the MSR is set somewhere between what the payback required is for the Navy and what NRC can get youngsters to sign up for. Got lots of guys bitching right here about MSRs. The Navy can't retain all those experienced officers at the 7-9 year mark because there isn't any place for them to go. DH screen rates are exhibit number one. I suppose something more than half assed attempts to retain everyone would be a good thing. But ultimately some of those guys the Navy made an effort to be retained would end up forced out later as they approached the top of the pyramid. I don't suppose big Navy much cares whether guys leave because they don't like active duty any longer or can get something on the outside not offered by the Navy, or they have to 2XFOS people to pitch them overboard. But most officers, regardless of motivation, would rather leave on their own terms when the timing is right, not stay, regardless of why, and then have the rug pulled out from under them. Bottom line, you won't get the sort of retention efforts from the Navy that will ensure folks are happily staying for 20 years. They don't need it. No civ company has the retention challenge the military has, nor the inflexible manning requirements. A civilian company can generally accommodate someone for 15-30 years because they don't have up or out policies and the worker bees can sit at their desks for a career. And still, civ workers job hop about every 5 years.