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Which Regional to go To

ChuckM

Well-Known Member
pilot
Highly recommend you spend a little time on airlinepilotforms.com's message boards. Lots of wanking about what sucks at each one. Gives a good feel for what people like and dislike. I would offer that the three AA wholy owened subsidiaries and Delta's Endeavor are at the top of the list.

Overarching theme seems to be that domicile/location trumps everything else vs what you will be making.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
http://www.envoyair.com/2016/11/07/...lots-join-the-envoy-rotor-transition-program/

Here's Envoy's latest Helo to Hero post.

@HokiePilot, you may want to call Piedmont Airlines (they've got bases in Va, Pa and Md right now- but probably will be consolidating in PHL) and see if they've got a similar program- OR will take you as is as long as you get the 25hrs of multi time Precurser for the R-ATP.

Piedmont is about as far north as you'll get, unless you go for Envoy/Endeavor NYC area bases. I know someone who is IAD based at Commutair (which has a preferential interview with United). I'm not sure who with a mainline partnership covers EWR these days. Expressjet used to but their upgrade times are probably some of the slowest out there.
 

ChuckM

Well-Known Member
pilot
http://www.envoyair.com/2016/11/07/...lots-join-the-envoy-rotor-transition-program/

Here's Envoy's latest Helo to Hero post.

@HokiePilot, you may want to call Piedmont Airlines (they've got bases in Va, Pa and Md right now- but probably will be consolidating in PHL) and see if they've got a similar program- OR will take you as is as long as you get the 25hrs of multi time Precurser for the R-ATP.

Piedmont is about as far north as you'll get, unless you go for Envoy/Endeavor NYC area bases. I know someone who is IAD based at Commutair (which has a preferential interview with United). I'm not sure who with a mainline partnership covers EWR these days. Expressjet used to but their upgrade times are probably some of the slowest out there.

FWIW:

The 750 hour restricted military ATP minimum is for total time only. All of the other requirements of 25 night/100 cross country/ 250 airplane (all as PIC) still apply (listed just prior to the ATP-R FAR a couple paragraphs above). Most Navy pilots accumulate about ~10 hrs of PIC from IFS and Primary solos. SO, the 250 hrs. of airplane PIC requirement is the larger hurdle (financially) than the commercial multi add-on and subsequent 10-15 hours of time building to hit the 25 hr. multi engine hiring requirement. (Note that the Multi time does not have to be PIC so your training time counts towards it ) Hence, Envoy or whoever else is willing to cover the financial bourdon of the delta should get your immediate attention.

Other options include instructing as a CFI/MEI to do it all for free. That could take you a year and if you think regional pay is bad try living hand to mouth as CFI. Should you have an abundance of time to pursue instructional ratings, it's worth doing instruction on the weekends. That's how I knocked out my Multi ATP mins. I would only give this advice to those just starting an instructional shore tour. You can leverage a lot of Mil Comp tests to make it easier/less expensive to get the ratings. If you are ~ 1 year or less from separation Envoy is the most appealing program at the moment.

If I had to do it all over again I think I would take the easy route and take Envoy up on their offer. Full disclosure, I am currently moonlighting at the flight school facilitating Envoy's RTP program. I am available for questions, although most of the details are already out there in other posts.
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
I'm looking at SkyWest mostly due to location (want to stay in the west). I don't think they offer as good of a deal as other regionals but I like the domiciles and the EMB 120.

SkyWest hasn't flown the Braslilia since 2014, but they are a good company that is likely to survive a very turbulent period for the regionals.

Some questions first for @HokiePilot:
- How much total time do you have?
- How much multi/turbine PIC time do you have?

As others have said or alluded to, the three things you should care about when picking a regional are bases, upgrade time, and pay/sechedules. You also need to consider things like bonuses and flow, but they shouldn't be anything more than a tie-breaker. In some instances, the flow program can be the *loser* in the tie breaker.

Bases:
Why do bases matter? Because your commute is going to be the #1 contributor/detractor from your overall quality of life as a regional pilot. A good commute to an average job is superior to a hard commute to a great job. I'll tell you my deal: I live in Vegas, and I retired from the USAF non-current and knew I was going to have to do some regional time. The "west coast" regionals currently in play are Skywest, Compass, and Horizon. From a commuting standpoint, here's how they stacked up:
- SKW: Junior bases were ORD and MSP, but 6-12 months down the road I could hold KSFO, which is an easy 1-leg commute from KLAS
- Compass: Junior base is KLAX, which is an easy 1-leg commute from Vegas
- Horizon: Junior base was Medford (not sure what it is today--that equation has changed a lot in the last 2 years), but Seattle and Portland were both attainable in 6-12 months. Medford is a 2-leg commute from Vegas.
Winner: Compass

Upgrade time:
Your objective is to get over to the left seat as soon as you can to both start building MTPIC time (if you don't all ready have the "magic 1,000 hours" of MTPIC), as well as make yourself eligible for other qualifications like Instructor or Line Check Airman. For me, as a fighter dude, I all ready had 2,500+ MTPIC, but I saw upgrade as my Plan B if I didn't get hired by a career destination airline. Here's how those three shook out (again, this is in 2015, so numbers are different today):
- SkyWest: at the time, something like an 8-year upgrade
- Compass: 6-12 months for someone with the requisite minimum qualifications. As a military guy with more than 500 hours in military multi-pilot airplanes (King Airs) I only needed 500 hours of 121 SIC time in order to meet upgrade qualifications. In reality, I could have upgraded at 9 months.
- Horizon: 4-7 years at the time to upgrade.
Winner: Compass

Pay/Schedules:
This wasn't very important for me, because I was planning on only being at the regionals for 2 years or less, and I had a military retirement to buffer the pain. I figured I could suffer through just about anything for 2 years, because I'd been financially planning on it for years and built up my savings and had no debt.

Pay is a moving target, though. When I was applying, SKW paid $30/hour, Compass $26/hour, and Horizon $31. SKW and CPZ have both bumped up their pay in the last year (and, of course, the AA wholly-owned regionals PSA/Envoy/Peidmont have bumped theirs up to $40-something a couple months ago). Given how things are changing, if you're at a regional more than a year, chances are that pay is going to go up.

There is not really much variation between airlines with respect to schedules. Bigger airplanes (E170/E175, CRJ-700/900) are going to fly longer legs and less legs per day, generally, than smaller airplanes (CRJ-2, Dash-8s, etc), but that's only a marginal difference. It is true that the real QOL is to be found pretty deep down in the work rules, trip rigs, etc, but honestly I don't know that it is worth drilling that deep to make a decision. All regional schedules suck ass for junior guys, so all the flavors of shit still taste like shit.

Flow/Bonuses:
Again, not a player in my decision matrix because I was just looking to get re-current, then head off to a career airline. There was only one airline with a bonus, Endeavor, and required you to be there a while to get it. The bonuses are attractive, especially at the AA wholly-owneds. The problem with bonuses is that they are not enduring (only available one time, or for a couple years, etc) and since they are not actual contract provisions, they can be rescinded at any time. Be careful picking based on "pay" that is actually a bunch of conditional bonuses thrown in on top of regular pay. That being said, as has been posted, some of those bonus-enhanced airlines have first-year pay approaching $60K, which is awesome.

Flow can also be a double-edged sword. The problem used to be that if you worked at an airline with a flow agreement, the mainline partner would not interview or hire you out of seniority order. For a military-background guy, that's a negative, because you're going to be eligible to get "the call" before your seniority list civvie peers. My understanding is that this provision has been removed from the AA flow agreements now. As others have said, it is a valid "plan B" if you don't get a call to The Show, but realized it could be a *decade* before you actually flow to AA.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
SkyWest hasn't flown the Braslilia since 2014, but they are a good company that is likely to survive a very turbulent period for the regionals.

Some questions first for @HokiePilot:
- How much total time do you have?
- How much multi/turbine PIC time do you have?

As others have said or alluded to, the three things you should care about when picking a regional are bases, upgrade time, and pay/sechedules. You also need to consider things like bonuses and flow, but they shouldn't be anything more than a tie-breaker. In some instances, the flow program can be the *loser* in the tie breaker.

Bases:
Why do bases matter? Because your commute is going to be the #1 contributor/detractor from your overall quality of life as a regional pilot. A good commute to an average job is superior to a hard commute to a great job. I'll tell you my deal: I live in Vegas, and I retired from the USAF non-current and knew I was going to have to do some regional time. The "west coast" regionals currently in play are Skywest, Compass, and Horizon. From a commuting standpoint, here's how they stacked up:
- SKW: Junior bases were ORD and MSP, but 6-12 months down the road I could hold KSFO, which is an easy 1-leg commute from KLAS
- Compass: Junior base is KLAX, which is an easy 1-leg commute from Vegas
- Horizon: Junior base was Medford (not sure what it is today--that equation has changed a lot in the last 2 years), but Seattle and Portland were both attainable in 6-12 months. Medford is a 2-leg commute from Vegas.
Winner: Compass

Upgrade time:
Your objective is to get over to the left seat as soon as you can to both start building MTPIC time (if you don't all ready have the "magic 1,000 hours" of MTPIC), as well as make yourself eligible for other qualifications like Instructor or Line Check Airman. For me, as a fighter dude, I all ready had 2,500+ MTPIC, but I saw upgrade as my Plan B if I didn't get hired by a career destination airline. Here's how those three shook out (again, this is in 2015, so numbers are different today):
- SkyWest: at the time, something like an 8-year upgrade
- Compass: 6-12 months for someone with the requisite minimum qualifications. As a military guy with more than 500 hours in military multi-pilot airplanes (King Airs) I only needed 500 hours of 121 SIC time in order to meet upgrade qualifications. In reality, I could have upgraded at 9 months.
- Horizon: 4-7 years at the time to upgrade.
Winner: Compass

Pay/Schedules:
This wasn't very important for me, because I was planning on only being at the regionals for 2 years or less, and I had a military retirement to buffer the pain. I figured I could suffer through just about anything for 2 years, because I'd been financially planning on it for years and built up my savings and had no debt.

Pay is a moving target, though. When I was applying, SKW paid $30/hour, Compass $26/hour, and Horizon $31. SKW and CPZ have both bumped up their pay in the last year (and, of course, the AA wholly-owned regionals PSA/Envoy/Peidmont have bumped theirs up to $40-something a couple months ago). Given how things are changing, if you're at a regional more than a year, chances are that pay is going to go up.

There is not really much variation between airlines with respect to schedules. Bigger airplanes (E170/E175, CRJ-700/900) are going to fly longer legs and less legs per day, generally, than smaller airplanes (CRJ-2, Dash-8s, etc), but that's only a marginal difference. It is true that the real QOL is to be found pretty deep down in the work rules, trip rigs, etc, but honestly I don't know that it is worth drilling that deep to make a decision. All regional schedules suck ass for junior guys, so all the flavors of shit still taste like shit.

Flow/Bonuses:
Again, not a player in my decision matrix because I was just looking to get re-current, then head off to a career airline. There was only one airline with a bonus, Endeavor, and required you to be there a while to get it. The bonuses are attractive, especially at the AA wholly-owneds. The problem with bonuses is that they are not enduring (only available one time, or for a couple years, etc) and since they are not actual contract provisions, they can be rescinded at any time. Be careful picking based on "pay" that is actually a bunch of conditional bonuses thrown in on top of regular pay. That being said, as has been posted, some of those bonus-enhanced airlines have first-year pay approaching $60K, which is awesome.

Flow can also be a double-edged sword. The problem used to be that if you worked at an airline with a flow agreement, the mainline partner would not interview or hire you out of seniority order. For a military-background guy, that's a negative, because you're going to be eligible to get "the call" before your seniority list civvie peers. My understanding is that this provision has been removed from the AA flow agreements now. As others have said, it is a valid "plan B" if you don't get a call to The Show, but realized it could be a *decade* before you actually flow to AA.
As a fan of good logical analysis with a rigorous methodology I love this post.
 

Python

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
SkyWest hasn't flown the Braslilia since 2014, but they are a good company that is likely to survive a very turbulent period for the regionals.

Some questions first for @HokiePilot:
- How much total time do you have?
- How much multi/turbine PIC time do you have?

As others have said or alluded to, the three things you should care about when picking a regional are bases, upgrade time, and pay/sechedules. You also need to consider things like bonuses and flow, but they shouldn't be anything more than a tie-breaker. In some instances, the flow program can be the *loser* in the tie breaker.

Bases:
Why do bases matter? Because your commute is going to be the #1 contributor/detractor from your overall quality of life as a regional pilot. A good commute to an average job is superior to a hard commute to a great job. I'll tell you my deal: I live in Vegas, and I retired from the USAF non-current and knew I was going to have to do some regional time. The "west coast" regionals currently in play are Skywest, Compass, and Horizon. From a commuting standpoint, here's how they stacked up:
- SKW: Junior bases were ORD and MSP, but 6-12 months down the road I could hold KSFO, which is an easy 1-leg commute from KLAS
- Compass: Junior base is KLAX, which is an easy 1-leg commute from Vegas
- Horizon: Junior base was Medford (not sure what it is today--that equation has changed a lot in the last 2 years), but Seattle and Portland were both attainable in 6-12 months. Medford is a 2-leg commute from Vegas.
Winner: Compass

Upgrade time:
Your objective is to get over to the left seat as soon as you can to both start building MTPIC time (if you don't all ready have the "magic 1,000 hours" of MTPIC), as well as make yourself eligible for other qualifications like Instructor or Line Check Airman. For me, as a fighter dude, I all ready had 2,500+ MTPIC, but I saw upgrade as my Plan B if I didn't get hired by a career destination airline. Here's how those three shook out (again, this is in 2015, so numbers are different today):
- SkyWest: at the time, something like an 8-year upgrade
- Compass: 6-12 months for someone with the requisite minimum qualifications. As a military guy with more than 500 hours in military multi-pilot airplanes (King Airs) I only needed 500 hours of 121 SIC time in order to meet upgrade qualifications. In reality, I could have upgraded at 9 months.
- Horizon: 4-7 years at the time to upgrade.
Winner: Compass

Pay/Schedules:
This wasn't very important for me, because I was planning on only being at the regionals for 2 years or less, and I had a military retirement to buffer the pain. I figured I could suffer through just about anything for 2 years, because I'd been financially planning on it for years and built up my savings and had no debt.

Pay is a moving target, though. When I was applying, SKW paid $30/hour, Compass $26/hour, and Horizon $31. SKW and CPZ have both bumped up their pay in the last year (and, of course, the AA wholly-owned regionals PSA/Envoy/Peidmont have bumped theirs up to $40-something a couple months ago). Given how things are changing, if you're at a regional more than a year, chances are that pay is going to go up.

There is not really much variation between airlines with respect to schedules. Bigger airplanes (E170/E175, CRJ-700/900) are going to fly longer legs and less legs per day, generally, than smaller airplanes (CRJ-2, Dash-8s, etc), but that's only a marginal difference. It is true that the real QOL is to be found pretty deep down in the work rules, trip rigs, etc, but honestly I don't know that it is worth drilling that deep to make a decision. All regional schedules suck ass for junior guys, so all the flavors of shit still taste like shit.

Flow/Bonuses:
Again, not a player in my decision matrix because I was just looking to get re-current, then head off to a career airline. There was only one airline with a bonus, Endeavor, and required you to be there a while to get it. The bonuses are attractive, especially at the AA wholly-owneds. The problem with bonuses is that they are not enduring (only available one time, or for a couple years, etc) and since they are not actual contract provisions, they can be rescinded at any time. Be careful picking based on "pay" that is actually a bunch of conditional bonuses thrown in on top of regular pay. That being said, as has been posted, some of those bonus-enhanced airlines have first-year pay approaching $60K, which is awesome.

Flow can also be a double-edged sword. The problem used to be that if you worked at an airline with a flow agreement, the mainline partner would not interview or hire you out of seniority order. For a military-background guy, that's a negative, because you're going to be eligible to get "the call" before your seniority list civvie peers. My understanding is that this provision has been removed from the AA flow agreements now. As others have said, it is a valid "plan B" if you don't get a call to The Show, but realized it could be a *decade* before you actually flow to AA.

Curious, if MTPIC time is key, what is the gameplan for Viper dudes (that don't have a ton of T-38 time)?
 

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor
Not all single engine time is created equal. A viper guy's hours are looked at differently than T-6 time. A fighter is a fighter.

This is about the only thing that gives me pause as a Helo->T-6 guy. I can get to ATP mins, I can afford to do a few years at a regional building time/121 experience, but many years there might not be tenable. The upcoming hiring wave from retirements is the only thing that makes the picture look possible.

Also, from what I've read, Multi TPIC is only a requirement at the box carriers. Now, hiring mins vs competitive resume might be worlds apart.
 

ChuckM

Well-Known Member
pilot
All,

To amend my previous statements about 250 hours of PIC: It was relayed to me that Envoy's internal examiner is crediting pilots for their Primary (t-34/t-6) first pilot time as PIC. My personal opinion aside about this adjudication/conversion of military time, it would appear that the average Navy pilot probably has close to ~80-90 hours of PIC time on the books. Basically they are using very subtle differences in what we call 1st pilot/2nd pilot and blurring the lines with sole manipulation of flight controls in the FAA sense. I see a legitimate problem/conflict of interest with this but am unclear of the recourse or professional fallout if audited by the FAA.

FWIW, If I would have tried to sell this to my DPE when I took my ATP check he would have laughed me out of the room.
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
Also, from what I've read, Multi TPIC is only a requirement at the box carriers. Now, hiring mins vs competitive resume might be worlds apart.

Multi turbine PIC is still a "magic" number, even if 1,000 or 500 hours isn't listed as a requirement. The airlines are hiring future Captains; PIC in something other than a light piston is their best indicator of that success.

Yes, some folks are getting hired at the majors without it, but those guys likely have other things in their resumes that make them attractive.

FedEx dropped their 1,000 TPIC requirement this year; in my indoc class, the mucky-mucks that came through to brief the newhires were very, very specific that although we were going to be FOs, the company "only hires Captains", and as such expected us to act/fly with the maturity/airmanship expected of a Captain.
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
This is about the only thing that gives me pause as a Helo->T-6 guy.

The T-6 time may not be as attractive as single-engine fighter time, but it *is* looked at fondly...especially if it is instructor time. The majors are still going to want to see some 121 regional time from a helo background guy, though.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
All,

I see a legitimate problem/conflict of interest with this but am unclear of the recourse or professional fallout if audited by the FAA.

FWIW, If I would have tried to sell this to my DPE when I took my ATP check he would have laughed me out of the room.

Even if you're logging it under the assumptions of Part 1? I thought that was the way to make FPT time work for you when you didn't sign. Or is your issue because Clown aircraft are single-piloted?
 

Python

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
The T-6 time may not be as attractive as single-engine fighter time, but it *is* looked at fondly...especially if it is instructor time. The majors are still going to want to see some 121 regional time from a helo background guy, though.

This is interesting. I just never figured F-16 guys would have it easy BECAUSE of the lack of multi time. Does the multi requirement have a "look the other way" factor for them because it is a fighter?
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
This is interesting. I just never figured F-16 guys would have it easy BECAUSE of the lack of multi time. Does the multi requirement have a "look the other way" factor for them because it is a fighter?

The MTPIC requirement is really just an avatar for the type of decisionmaking and airmanship the airlines want. It presumes a civlian-background pilot, who won't really get into the types of complex environments and fast-paced decisionmaking situations until they get into a job that flies a jet or turboprop multiengine airplane.

The airlines know that a single seat fighter guy has most every hour spent in the cockpit hand-flying, doing complex multitasking and fast decisionmaking at the same time. That's high quality airmanship that compares to the type of experience that other pilots get at a similar point in their careers in multiengine jets and turboprops.

Generally, they look at primary military instructor time very similarly.

As an aside, I've never understood why the airlines didn't value the same type of airmanship that comes from rotorheads, but in another thread over on another forum recently, an Army helo dude told me it stems from the fact that in the past, many helos did not do much in the way of IFR or complex instrument flying. Apparently some of the older helos weren't even certified to fly IFR at all.
 
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