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VIETNAM or IRAQ WAR: What is it good for?? Absolutely nothing?? Or ...????

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
but it's still primarily a market-driven economy and not centrally planned.

Lenin and Marx may not recognize nor approve of China today. But to not recognize the hand, communist inspired and dedicated, in every aspect of their society, including the economy is myopic. Even my 18 year old came away from a trip to China this summer with the observation that the free small businesses that proliferate are actually just selling products produced by government factories, at the largess of the government. Funny, he described China almost exactly as A4's did, large grey prison.
 

jride200

Member
Fortunately where Iran and nukes are concerned ... we still have one reliable friend who has the requisite fire in their belly to do what is necessary ....

No...not this sweetie, or her countless lovely dark-haired, dark-complected, comrades. Say it isn't so!

http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=13

heat_packing_israeli_woman.jpg


Yes, it is so. (Operation Opera anyone?) We should take notes and be thankful.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
No...not this sweetie, or her countless lovely dark-haired, dark-complected, comrades. Say it isn't so!

Yes, it is so. (Operation Opera anyone?) We should take notes and be thankful.

That is if they don't fvck it up like they did last summer's war.......:(
 

WishICouldFly

UO Future Pork Chop
That is if they don't fvck it up like they did last summer's war.......:(

I don't know the details behind it, but couldn't we argue that politically it was similar to Vietnam, where the Israeli public and the rest of the world wasn't in full support of it, and ultimately limited their abilities to operate?
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I don't know the details behind it, but couldn't we argue that politically it was similar to Vietnam, where the Israeli public and the rest of the world wasn't in full support of it, and ultimately limited their abilities to operate?


No, the Israeli public was fully and solidly behind the war from the beginning, it was only after the war that the recriminations and doubt began. And the Israeli's care less about world opinion than pretty much any other democracy out there.

It was poor planning and poor soldiering that cost them so much in the conflict. The Army being used as an occupation force for the past few years and poor leadership has led to a serious atrophying of basic combat skills, leading to kestone cops campaign that did nothing but expose the IDF's shortcomings.
 

HercDriver

Idiots w/boats = job security
pilot
Super Moderator
Don't forget, China has gone far in their "lead" technology; so far that they now lead all other countries in the manufacture of it in crazy, unexpected places.;)

They can manufacture lead into paint on children's toys and add it to gasoline; why, while we've been letting our vital "lead technology" wither away, the resourceful Chinese have been putting it to new uses. Looking forward to buying lead greeting cards & snacks at Wal-Mart.

Chinese going "retro" with lead paint

Lead paint chips: Delicious but deadly
 

FUPaladin

couldabeen
Lenin and Marx may not recognize nor approve of China today. But to not recognize the hand, communist inspired and dedicated, in every aspect of their society, including the economy is myopic. Even my 18 year old came away from a trip to China this summer with the observation that the free small businesses that proliferate are actually just selling products produced by government manufactures, at the largess of the government. Funny he described China almost exactly as A4's did, large grey prison.

I should have made clear from the beginning that when I say China is no longer truly communist, I'm referring specifically to its economy, not its governmental institutions, because I don't disagree with A4s nearly as much as our argument makes it appear I do. The Communist Party's absolute hold on power remains virtually the same as it's been since 1949. And I don't disagree with the statement that China is a big gray prison either. It's big, it's gray, and you can't leave.

I'm interested to know, however, how your son or daughter could tell which products in Chinese shops were made by government manufacturers. I'm sure that in order to set up the factory, the correct local government officials had to be paid off and that those same officials maintain a close and lucrative relationship with the factory (corruption is par for the course in China). But the business itself is mostly free to succeed or fail on its own according to how its goods fare in the market--there's no central planning giving the factory quotas to meet like we'd associate with the Soviet Union or Maoist China. Heck, a rapidly growing number of Chinese now own stocks, and virtually everyone (excluding China's millions of peasants, for whom little has changed) is out to increase their personal wealth. I'm sorry, but that's not what I call communism.

Free market? Well... no, and I probably should never have thrown that term out there, but then again, a true free market is just theoretical anyway. But despite government involvement China's economy is still more market-driven than it is centrally controlled.

Free people? Nooooo, not by a long shot. There is only rule of government in China, not rule of law, and as I've said before, Chinese citizens have no civil rights to speak of. The government may not try to control people's personal lives as much as they used to, but they're still very diligent about silencing dissent, and their punishments are swift and usually severe. Who knows how long they'll be able to keep that up, especially with a growing middle class, but from that perspective, China is as communist now as it ever was.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
....It was poor planning and poor soldiering that cost them so much in the conflict......
AGREE.

AND ... a complete lack of leadership and direction starting right at the top --- and while talk is cheap ... I can only "fantasize" about what might have happened had Netanyahu been leading the country instead of the Jimmy Carter-esque Olmert.

The world wonders ....

But then .... in spite of all his problems, internal and external -- don't be surprised if "Bibi" is the next Prime Minister. I think this last go-'round was the last straw for the Israeli public. Then .... stand by, Tehran nuke program. Who knows ... they might even pull their A-4's out of mothballs .... ??? :)

Again .... with the caveat that "talk is cheap" .... :D:sleep_125
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I'm interested to know, however, how your son or daughter could tell which products in Chinese shops were made by government manufacturers. I'm sure that in order to set up the factory, the correct local government officials had to be paid off and that those same officials maintain a close and lucrative relationship with the factory (corruption is par for the course in China). But the business itself is mostly free to succeed or fail on its own according to how its goods fare in the market--there's no central planning giving the factory quotas to meet like we'd associate with the Soviet Union or Maoist China. Heck, a rapidly growing number of Chinese now own stocks, and virtually everyone (excluding China's millions of peasants, for whom little has changed) is out to increase their personal wealth. I'm sorry, but that's not what I call communism.

It wasn't too hard. He toured about half a dozen government factories. Every small business he saw was selling the products of the factory stores in their area. The commies may not be the only game in town, but they still are THE game. The govt gives you permission to go into business, and, apparently in those places he visited, they tell you what to sell. Oh sure, set your own price, compete with your neighbor's shop. But he sells the same stuff and acquired it in the same place as your product, and at the same "wholesale" price. That may be more free then 20 years ago, but it ain't my definition of a truly free market. In a free market you enter the market place at your choosing and offer the goods and services you chose to. You may stay in the market, leave the market or, if you are lucky, make revolutionary changes to the market to your benefit. And while I am very happy to note the level of stock ownership in China, that would be in a stock market controlled by, you guessed it, the commies.

We can agree it is a better place then 20 years ago, but it isn't anything to get all excited about. It is the result of a few tyrants' efforts to remain in control of billions. The Chicoms are not enlightened, they are threatened, and just trying to stay in control. If that means doling out a few basic economic freedoms to buy off their citizens, so be it. They can always yank the string when ever they want. If it means shooting missiles over the strait, or threatening the U.S., they will do that. You mentioned the millions of peasants yourself. Are we to praise the commies for sharing some wealth with a relative few in some coastal cities while 100s of millions live in what still resembles Mao's China? I chose not to forget the vast majority of Chinese just because the images the commies chose to share with the world show a different China.
 
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