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V-22 escort??

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
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Super Moderator
Contributor
Check out the Marine Aviation Campaign Plan.....although there will be a need, there is scarcely enough funding for programs of record already programmed across the FYDP. They may have to use the USAF tactical doctrine of OCA and not do any close escorts. In the words of Boss to LSOs..."No chance, Paddles!"
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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Super Moderator
Contributor
heyjoe said:
Check out the Marine Aviation Campaign Plan.....although there will be a need, there is scarcely enough funding for programs of record already programmed across the FYDP. They may have to use the USAF tactical doctrine of OCA and not do any close escorts. In the words of Boss to LSOs..."No chance, Paddles!"
Yeah, I was gonna say, they're lucky to have gotten the Osprey and JSF.

Brett
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
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Super Moderator
Contributor
goosegagnon2 said:
haha, ok im not quite in the miltary yet, so fill me in on the acronyms so im not out in left field.

Sorry gang,
Way too much time in and around Pentagon results in propensity to talk in Pentagonese (or "tongues"). That is why it taskes almost a year there to figure out what people are talking about because most meetings sound like everyone is speaking Greek (when you don't know a word of it).

"Across the FYDP"
Every year each service (and communities within the service) puts together their Program Objective Memorandum (or "POM"), which eventually gets sent to OSD and then onto the President who submits it to Congress as a Budget for them to work over as the President's Budget (PB07 is about to be sent over in a few weeks). Congress just finished up with the FY06 submit (two months into overtime BTW). So where does the FYDP play in all of this? The POM is built on a six year "programming" plan called the Future Year Defense Plan (FYDP). Only what's contained in the FYDP ("Across the FYDP" means what's in all six years or a wedge planted in latter years to start a new program) matters (as "programs of record") and really only what Congress puts into both the Authorization and Appropriation Bills for the President to sign (only the first year of the submitted budget) matters as the FYDP gets updated every year...things fall out; things drop in....Don't try to figure thsi all out until you get your turn inside the "Puzzle Palace", it can drive you to drink or worse trying to make sense of it.

"OCA" - Air Force fighter doctrine has been built on Offensive Counter Air (read: fighter sweep in this case) and Defensive Counter Air (read: Combat Air Patrol). Their "promise/contract" to warfighters is "air dominance or specifically "air superiority". They use aggressive OCA (like Desert Storm) to keep any threat air activity beat down. Takes a lot of fighters dedicated to that task and one reason they sold their souls for the F-22. They don't want any hinderance to their OCA sorties (like a nasty double digit SAM). So in the case of V-22, Air Force would say no escorts needed, we'll have the skies clear for you and take care of any IADS to boot (Air Dominance).

"Boss to LSOs" - There is always the pressure of time on a flight deck (like in Blade Runner, sort of): Minimal time to launch, minimal time to recover to keep carrier from having to stay in the wind one minute longer than necessary. The goal in cyclic ops (one event launches and another recovers immediately and gets parked on the bow...ship takes a break and aircraft get respotted (refueled, fixed, whatever in this brief respite) for next "cycle". Now you have that concept, aircraft are pressed to land every 45 seconds during the day and every minute at night. The Air Boss (in tower) owns the flight deck and Landing Signal Officers (known as "Paddles"..see A4s posts on subject and images of when they actually "waved" aircraft aboard with paddles) "wave" every pass. When an aircraft shows up and the deck isn't ready, the Boss and LSOs will wait until last second to decide it ain't going to happen and then Boss will announce over radio and addressing system "no chance, Paddles!". The controlling LSO will then use wave-off lights to send aircraft around. Just a "been there" way of saying "No way, man!"
 

KBayDog

Well-Known Member
heyjoe said:
Way too much time in and around Pentagon results in propensity to talk in Pentagonese (or "tongues").

Perhaps you could share your experiences in dealing with the many different dialects of Pentagonese?
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
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Super Moderator
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KBayDog said:
Perhaps you could share your experiences in dealing with the many different dialects of Pentagonese?

When you are a Requirements officer, it's like having a huge sack of noisy gold coins in a foreign port and you're trying to navigate your way back to fleet landing through an alley in a very bad part of town. all the locals (entrenched Pentagon "sharks") know you have to pass this way and they're waiting for you and shouting stuff in intelligible dialects and hiding behind dark side alleys and taking coins from your sack before you know what happened. It takes a few trips throught he alley before you figure out what they are saying (at least whether their strange words are good or bad phrases) and maybe find some friends to help to navigate your way without losing too many coins. or if you like simpler analogies:

Your first group grope in "the building" is like being in a fox hole with all sorts of tracers flying each way and you're not sure who's a friend or foe.
 

KBayDog

Well-Known Member
heyjoe said:
When you are a Requirements officer...

...you are just a very needy person.

Seriously, thank you for clearing up what it must be like to be Valentine Michael Smith.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
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Super Moderator
Contributor
KBayDog said:
...you are just a very needy person.

Seriously, thank you for clearing up what it must be like to be Valentine Michael Smith.

Very apt analogy if you are making the connection to "Stranger in a Strange Land". In my second Pentagon tour, it eventually fell on me to get folks acclimated pronto (my Admiral said if I didn't straighten out a RO having trouble understanding how the building worked I'd have to take their programs...I almost became the E-2 RO in 1993!). He had me turn the collective wisdon into a course when I retired and I've been working with ROs ever since using a formal course....that said; I've seen so many folks go into virtual culture shock after being thrown into the fray like gladiators.
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
goosegagnon2 said:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/v-22-escort.htm

How probable is this aircraft? I looked up a post on here about it before but didn't get to much info out of it.

This has been hashed and rehashed again and again. Old topic.

It's not about escort speeds or range or whatever. The Marines will not allow their V-22 to fly in anything other than a permissive environment. They'll use speed, concelement, cover, and information to avoid the enemy.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
ChuckMK23 said:
This has been hashed and rehashed again and again. Old topic.

It's not about escort speeds or range or whatever. The Marines will not allow their V-22 to fly in anything other than a permissive environment. They'll use speed, concelement, cover, and information to avoid the enemy.

It depends on what you mean by permissive. The V-22s environment is no more "permissive" than any other assault, perhaps less so, since it will be going way past the forward edge of the battle area. The V-22 will go where the mission requires. Its speed and range increases the options available to the MAGTF CO, which should allow him to better manuever his forces to exploit the enemy's gaps. That's what a smart commander tries to do right now, to a lesser extent, with existing rotorcraft.

If the scheme of manuever drives going to a zone where supporting arms are required, then you still retain that option with the V-22. At the current time, that may require a different mix of FW/RW and attached/detached escort than other platforms. In the future, UAVs or other weapons systems may further complement the V-22. In the meantime, the ability to move forces further and faster will greatly enhance the manuever capability of the Marine Corps.
 

squeeze

Retired Harrier Dude
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
phrogdriver said:
...it will be going way past the forward edge of the battle area...will go where the mission requires...increases the options available to the MAGTF CO...allow him to better manuever his forces to exploit the enemy's gaps...the scheme of manuever...willl greatly enhance the manuever capability of the Marine Corps.

The Kool-Aid is strong with this one. ;)
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
You're talking to a guy who just finished non-res Command and Staff!:icon_tong The kool-aid tastes good, BTW.
 

TheBubba

I Can Has Leadership!
None
OK... what exactly do you guys mean when you refer to the kool-aid? My under powered brain can't get itself around that one sans help.
 
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