USS Fitzgerald collision in C7F

[BigRed389]

I met their XO a few months back stateside. Best of luck to him...this is going to be a tough one.

Stepping onto the bridge of a warship is so much different than the cockpit of an aircraft, and I feel that it shouldn't be that way. Too much ego, too little sleep, and no ability for the junior person with the better SA to offer an opinion without it getting immediately squashed.

SWO's do this to themselves, repeatedly, and it doesn't have to be this way.

I really think this should serve as a wake up call to their culture, but doubt it will...
Pickle

The ship just got hit and is literally still fighting to get back to safety. It's way too early to speculate on root causes.

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

So, a little history, I was the first person on scene with the Porter when she zigged in front of a Japanese tanker (the Otowasan, if I remember correctly) as we were escorting her, and the Amphib she was escorting, through the SOH.

It was very sobering to see the damage done by a fairly glancing blow with a tanker. There were no jokes about the CO being fired, we just wondered how many people died. Luckily, no one did.

I'm worried that is not going to be the outcome here, as the damage looks way worse on this incident. It will be interesting to see and hear the replay next year, whenever it is released, but I hope one of the takeaways will be a revamp of CRM on the bridge.

Stepping onto the bridge of a warship is so much different than the cockpit of an aircraft, and I feel that it shouldn't be that way. Too much ego, too little sleep, and no ability for the junior person with the better SA to offer an opinion without it getting immediately squashed.

SWO's do this to themselves, repeatedly, and it doesn't have to be this way.

https://pilotonline.com/news/milita...cle_c7472be8-efcb-5763-93bb-aab66d820175.html

I added the audio from the Porter collision to make my point, judging by the hour, aspect, and damage, it looks like a repeat of their mistake.

I really think this should serve as a wake up call to their culture, but doubt it will...

Pickle

It's too soon to determine who's at fault. We wouldn't "speculate" when an A/C goes down, let's not do the same for the surface navy until the facts and investigation are released.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

Moved this to its own thread; I figure it's in bad taste to leave it in the "fired skippers" thread when there's 7 of our shipmates still missing, and the CO reportedly just got medevaced off his own ship.

Thanks for moving it. I saw this when the story just broke on Fox News and posted without looking at the early details. Prayers going out to those sailors and their families tonight.

 

[azguy]

Stepping onto the bridge of a warship is so much different than the cockpit of an aircraft, and I feel that it shouldn't be that way. Too much ego, too little sleep, and no ability for the junior person with the better SA to offer an opinion without it getting immediately squashed.

SWO's do this to themselves, repeatedly, and it doesn't have to be this way.

This is an unbelievably tasteless post. If many of our shipmates weren't injured, missing, and possibly dead at this hour, it would still be a massively ignorant and retarded observation by someone that likely has close to zero time on a CRUDES bridge.

 

[robav8r]

This is an unbelievably tasteless post. If many of our shipmates weren't injured, missing, and possibly dead at this hour, it would still be a massively ignorant and retarded observation by someone that likely has close to zero time on a CRUDES bridge.

No, its not, and I have quite a bit of time on the bridge of DD's, CG's and DDG's. SWO's could learn a LOT from aviators wrt CRM/ORM. Yes, of course we will wait for the facts and hope for the best for the 7 missing and their families. But discussing SWO culture on Air Wariors is not taboo here.

 

[fc2spyguy]

This is an unbelievably tasteless post. If many of our shipmates weren't injured, missing, and possibly dead at this hour, it would still be a massively ignorant and retarded observation by someone that likely has close to zero time on a CRUDES bridge.

Pulling the wool over your eyes because people are injured isn't going to help anyone. They collided in the open fucking ocean. The level of incompetence for that to happen is ridiculous. Something must be learned from this, and shutting things down will only ensure it happens again in the future.

 

[Recovering LSO]

@azguy you been over to SailorBob in the last 24 hours? Holy fucking donut holes.... Those guys have basically got the entire report and investigation written.

 

[azguy]

Pulling the wool over your eyes because people are injured isn't going to help anyone. They collided in the open fucking ocean. The level of incompetence for that to happen is ridiculous. Something must be learned from this, and shutting things down will only ensure it happens again in the future.

They actually weren't in open ocean. As to 'levels of incompetence;' we simply aren't armed with enough facts to make a judgement at this time. I don't know how much OOD watch you stood as a SPY tech, but this should be evident.

I'm all about mishap reports and lessons learned; DFCs and even courts martial if necessary; but there's a time and place for that. If we're very lucky, there are seven guys treading water in the Phil Sea, in the middle of the night, right now, waiting to be rescued. Let's pump the breaks. A P-3 pilot regaling us with his vast knowledge of the state of bridge resource management on ships would be comical on most days, but today, it's not.

If someone came on here and posted about the sorry culture of maintenance, airmanship, or whatever, in naval aviation, in the hours following an H-53 crash in the VACAPES, 2x F-18s bumping/crashing in the pattern, an OBOGS mishap, a USMC fighter falling out of the sky, et al, that person would be rightly ostracized. There's a time and a place...

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

Multiple outlets reporting ship is back to home port. 7 still missing.

 

[Deleted member 24525]

They actually weren't in open ocean. As to 'levels of incompetence;' we simply aren't armed with enough facts to make a judgement at this time. I don't know how much OOD watch you stood as a SPY tech, but this should be evident.

I'm all about mishap reports and lessons learned; DFCs and even courts martial if necessary; but there's a time and place for that. If we're very lucky, there are seven guys treading water in the Phil Sea, in the middle of the night, right now, waiting to be rescued. Let's pump the breaks. A P-3 pilot regaling us with his vast knowledge of the state of bridge resource management on ships would be comical on most days, but today, it's not.

If someone came on here and posted about the sorry culture of maintenance, airmanship, or whatever, in naval aviation, in the hours following an H-53 crash in the VACAPES, 2x F-18s bumping/crashing in the pattern, an OBOGS mishap, a USMC fighter falling out of the sky, et al, that person would be rightly ostracized. There's a time and a place...

It is KNOWN, written about, studied, and proven with statistics that the surface navy has a cultural problem. AZ he is not attacking you. He is stating there is a cultural problem and providing proof of such.
Do you know why the CRM model is used?
Because it FUCKING WORKS. Maybe now is the time for the SWOs to stop defending their shitty culture.
You're not more of a man or a better officer for getting 3 hours of sleep a night and yelling louder at your enlisted guys.

 

[Recovering LSO]

A P-3 pilot regaling us with his vast knowledge of the state of bridge resource management on ships would be comical on most days, but today, it's not.

When all settles down, because perhaps it is appropriate to let this thing play out, come back and let us know how and where he's wrong.

Spoiler alert: he's not.

 

[BigRed389]

It is KNOWN, written about, studied, and proven with statistics that the surface navy has a cultural problem. AZ he is not attacking you. He is stating there is a cultural problem and providing proof of such.
Do you know why the CRM model is used?
Because it FUCKING WORKS. Maybe now is the time for the SWOs to stop defending their shitty culture.
You're not more of a man or a better officer for getting 3 hours of sleep a night and yelling louder at your enlisted guys.

CRM is taught. Probably not nearly as well as it should be, but it is a thing now.
Crew rest is a thing now as well. Quite a few ships now use Circadian watch rotations.
I've worked several ships in stressing points of the training cycle, and have never seen CO's lose their shit like routinely happened when I was a SWO.
Point is, what you saw 10 years ago isn't how things are today. There has been a recognition there is a problem and a Fleetwide effort to change at least what can be controlled at the shipboard level.

Obviously based on what happened we're likely to find some problems when the study is complete.
Question is whether or not they will be the same ones or new ones.

I have my own ideas and theories, but short of a total top down overhaul of the training and manning process, the Surface force has done most of what it can control at the unit level to fix the cultural problems.
I'm all for constructive criticism, but if it's based on dated or incomplete information, it's not productive.

 

[Recovering LSO]

I was recently in Newport for a few weeks of training. The comments and attitudes of many (most) of the SWOs and SWO(n) in that course run counter to most of what you wrote. Not sure if it's holdover from days of yore, a romanticization of "back in the day," or what - but all is not as you describe. At least not according to the folks headed out to command. The aviators in the class sat on our hands, wide eyed, staring at each other in disbelief at what we were hearing.

Who knows, maybe none of that is relevant in that case....

 

[BigRed389]

I was recently in Newport for a few weeks of training. The comments and attitudes of many (most) of the SWOs and SWO(n) in that course run counter to most of what you wrote. Not sure if it's holdover from days of yore, a romanticization of "back in the day," or what - but all is not as you describe. At least not according to the folks headed out to command. The aviators in the class sat on our hands, wide eyed, staring at each other in disbelief at what we were hearing.

Who knows, maybe none of that is relevant in that case....

Fair points, and hopefully it all comes to light.

I'll caveat that my recent experience is only West Coast ships and I'm comparing their QOL to what I saw as a Norfolk JO...you probably got a more complete cross section at Newport than I do.

 

[nittany03]

It's too soon to determine who's at fault. We wouldn't "speculate" when an A/C goes down, let's not do the same for the surface navy until the facts and investigation are released.

@azguy you been over to SailorBob in the last 24 hours? Holy fucking donut holes.... Those guys have basically got the entire report and investigation written.

And when an aviator brought up this issue, he/she got gang-tackled by all the SWOs. As if the fact they make you display your rank over there wasn't already a strong enough incentive to just lurk and not post anything.