NEWS USAF Fighter And Bomber Crews Get Modified M4 Rifles That Fit Under Ejection Seats

[Hotdogs]

Got it, we are still not communicating. I’ll try to clear it up.

1. A downed aviator has but one duty, evade and get back in the cockpit where they make marvelous killers.
2. Evasion is more difficult with a rifle because:
A. One M4 style rifle with 120 rounds adds an additional 10 plus pounds to your “escape weight.”
B. Using a PRQ7 while carrying a rifle, while evading, lowers either the effective use of the rifle or the users attention to a potentially
dangerous level.
C. Land navigation (critical component of E&E) is more difficult with a two-handed weapon.
D. Three 30 rounds magazines not effectively secured are shocking loud when you are moving.
E. Those same magazines stuffed for silence in your bag/flightsuit/pockets are now ineffective.
F. Firing at an “A” target twice a year is enough to get a cute ribbon for your uniform but hardly enough to prepare you in the
effective use of a rifle.
G. When you are trying to hide or fit in a small hiding place an extra 30” of inflexible steel is not a good thing.

Lastly, a pistol is designed for self-defense. A rifle is made for offensive operations. Armed with a rifle a pilot, who needs to evade, might feel compelled to stay put are try to fight it put. I have been on only one effort to help a downed Kiowa Warrior crew in Iraq (2006), and trust me, I wish they had been able to evade toward us rather than us maneuvering to them (they could not, they were both injured too badly).

All that said, I am not trying to change your mind, I am just offering a view point based on some hard earned experience on the ground.

Jesus...

A) You need to hit them gym if that’s a legitimate issue. Considering the physical fitness/size I have seen in some Navy aircrew....you seriously might have a point... but again that’s a cultural issue.

B) Curious on how you think carrying a hand held radio makes your rifle less effective? The logic jump escapes me.

C) through E). Also something easily fixed with the right equipment. Probably a little overstated as well.

F) More cultural issues.

G) 30” of steel? Dude an M4 is about 15-16” with a collapsible stock.

Last Paragraph: That is complete horseshit. It’s a training issue. If trained properly the M4 is a much more accurate and effective defensive weapon and easier to maneuver with and escape. Also the big difference between 9mm vs high velocity .223. I’ll tell you what...next time you get a chance. Take your M4 (or similarly designed weapon of choice...SBR-type) and a handgun. Literally any handgun. M9, M11, XDM40, whatever... and then take twenty shots with both at 25-50 meters at a non-maneuvering human sized target.

After you do that let me know how you feel about the weapon of choice in the extremely remote chance you’ll have to use it. Sure, I agree evasion and escape is the best course of action. Nobody is denying that...but if the off chance for self-protection is required... don’t you actually want to hit your target?

 

[Brett327]

I love hummus.

 

[Hotdogs]

Best part of this thead:

“We’re the U.S Navy and we don’t issue our pilots rifles because we think it’ll make them act like Rambo”

 

[Hotdogs]

I love hummus.

Do you actually like hummus or are you just trying to inform us on the interpretation of the Navy’s policy on hummus? Serious question.

 

[xj220]

No dog in this fight, but again, I'd rather take 120 rds of .223 vs 30? rds of 9 mm.

 

[Brett327]

Do you actually like hummus or are you just trying to inform us on the interpretation of the Navy’s policy on hummus? Serious question.

Based on the last 13 years of interaction on this site, it’s obviously both.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

I just love all you tough air-conditioned cockpit warriors. What a dumbass. Here, I’ll make it like a cartoon so you can get it.

WOSH! Capt. @Treetop Flyer has ejected. Tumbling through the sky our steely-eyed, TBS trained warrior is already planning his next action before...SNAP...his chute opens. Drifting to the ground he takes mental notes of his survival gear, but luckily he has his ready-to-assemble assault rifle! WHAM! On hitting the ground our hero disengages from his canopy and pulls his seat pan toward him.

“Durka durka...Allah kabob durka.” “Damn,” says @Treetop Flyer, the bad guys are closer than I thought.” Instead of moving away from the enemy as fast as possible, our hero assembles his rifle as the enemy closes in. SCHLICK...the sound of the magazine sliding into the receiver is fucking loud. “Durka? Cassba Allah hummus durka.” Our hero can hear the enemy is close...too close. SQUELCH...”Treetop Five this is rescue one, over...” The captain takes his best Rambo pose, rifle in the crook of his arm and answers his survival radio, “Hey guys, the enemy is close.” “Treetop Five, we need you to move out of the village and south toward the open field. The captain fumbles for his compass when he hears a noise. Squeezing the trigger...nothing...”Shit, in all the confusion of the ejection I forgot to chamber a round!” Dropping the compass he readies his weapon. CLICK...CLICK...BLAM-BLAM, our hero squeezes off two rounds at the approaching enemy, hitting nothing. Realizing he needs to aim, he now drops his radio, missing the next transmission as he takes deadly aim. POW...a miss? “What the fuck! I had him dead in my sights.” Then @Treetop Flyer realizes that he may, or may not have, zeroed this particular rifle in the last three months. Looking over the edge of his hiding place he sees the enemy splitting up, preparing to either flank or envelope him.

A series of loud cracks are heard as @Treetop Flyer fires three, maybe four or five rounds in the direction of the men on his left and right. He can’t tell if he hit anyone but the sudden explosion of dirt and rock along the front of his hole tell him there are still some alive. Ready to fight the captain fires a few quick bursts...BLAM, BLAM, BLAM...BLAM, BLAM, BLAM...BLAM, BLAM, BLAM. “Durka mufti camel khaki durka!” shouts an enemy soldier. @Treetop Flyer can only fire in angry response. He can hear the CSAR helo calling, asking him to move, but he is stuck and still has...uh...ummm...about 90 or 100 rounds. As he continues to shoot he feels that sickening lack of recoil indicating an empty weapon. He drops the empty mag and reaches to his seat pan ammo purse and struggles to extract a magazine. “Shit!” He can smell the fucked up Russian cigarettes and greasy lamb stench of a nearby enemy fighter. Gathering his courage he makes a quick break...dashing for a nearby alley, his ammo purse bouncing between his hip and wall. Rounding a corner he realizes he doesn’t know what direction south is! Finally extracting a magazine he slips in in just in time to see the enemy round the corner. He aims and squeezes the trigger...nothing! In all the excitement he forgot to chamber a round (hey, he only fires the fucker twice a year and never on float). Slamming the bolt forward he fires again...nothing! He suddenly realizes he inserted the magazine upside down. As he turns to run, the last thing he feels is the butt of the enemy rifle crashing into his skull.

Hovering over the empty field, Rescue One wonders why @Treetop Flyer never responded to their calls. They are forced to depart.

Two nights later all the news channels in the US feature the tragic story of a US military flyer captured by the enemy. His fate is sealed. Looking angerly at the camera all the world knows this man’s head is about to be sliced off. No one notices the enemy fighter with the fancy American carbine standing guard.

Stick to airplanes @Treetop Flyer, I am certain you are a fantastic aviator. Stick to what you learned in SERE, it will serve you well. Leave the long arm fighting to the guys who know what their doing. Oh, and grow up.

I’m only responding to let you know I didn’t read past your first couple sentences. You’re a fucking clown.

 

[RobLyman]

I just love all you tough air-conditioned cockpit warriors. What a dumbass. Here, I’ll make it like a cartoon so you can get it.

WOSH! Capt. @Treetop Flyer has ejected. Tumbling through the sky our steely-eyed, TBS trained warrior is already planning his next action before...SNAP...his chute opens. Drifting to the ground he takes mental notes of his survival gear, but luckily he has his ready-to-assemble assault rifle! WHAM! On hitting the ground our hero disengages from his canopy and pulls his seat pan toward him.

“Durka durka...Allah kabob durka.” “Damn,” says @Treetop Flyer, the bad guys are closer than I thought.” Instead of moving away from the enemy as fast as possible, our hero assembles his rifle as the enemy closes in. SCHLICK...the sound of the magazine sliding into the receiver is fucking loud. “Durka? Cassba Allah hummus durka.” Our hero can hear the enemy is close...too close. SQUELCH...”Treetop Five this is rescue one, over...” The captain takes his best Rambo pose, rifle in the crook of his arm and answers his survival radio, “Hey guys, the enemy is close.” “Treetop Five, we need you to move out of the village and south toward the open field. The captain fumbles for his compass when he hears a noise. Squeezing the trigger...nothing...”Shit, in all the confusion of the ejection I forgot to chamber a round!” Dropping the compass he readies his weapon. CLICK...CLICK...BLAM-BLAM, our hero squeezes off two rounds at the approaching enemy, hitting nothing. Realizing he needs to aim, he now drops his radio, missing the next transmission as he takes deadly aim. POW...a miss? “What the fuck! I had him dead in my sights.” Then @Treetop Flyer realizes that he may, or may not have, zeroed this particular rifle in the last three months. Looking over the edge of his hiding place he sees the enemy splitting up, preparing to either flank or envelope him.

A series of loud cracks are heard as @Treetop Flyer fires three, maybe four or five rounds in the direction of the men on his left and right. He can’t tell if he hit anyone but the sudden explosion of dirt and rock along the front of his hole tell him there are still some alive. Ready to fight the captain fires a few quick bursts...BLAM, BLAM, BLAM...BLAM, BLAM, BLAM...BLAM, BLAM, BLAM. “Durka mufti camel khaki durka!” shouts an enemy soldier. @Treetop Flyer can only fire in angry response. He can hear the CSAR helo calling, asking him to move, but he is stuck and still has...uh...ummm...about 90 or 100 rounds. As he continues to shoot he feels that sickening lack of recoil indicating an empty weapon. He drops the empty mag and reaches to his seat pan ammo purse and struggles to extract a magazine. “Shit!” He can smell the fucked up Russian cigarettes and greasy lamb stench of a nearby enemy fighter. Gathering his courage he makes a quick break...dashing for a nearby alley, his ammo purse bouncing between his hip and wall. Rounding a corner he realizes he doesn’t know what direction south is! Finally extracting a magazine he slips in in just in time to see the enemy round the corner. He aims and squeezes the trigger...nothing! In all the excitement he forgot to chamber a round (hey, he only fires the fucker twice a year and never on float). Slamming the bolt forward he fires again...nothing! He suddenly realizes he inserted the magazine upside down. As he turns to run, the last thing he feels is the butt of the enemy rifle crashing into his skull.

Hovering over the empty field, Rescue One wonders why @Treetop Flyer never responded to their calls. They are forced to depart.

Two nights later all the news channels in the US feature the tragic story of a US military flyer captured by the enemy. His fate is sealed. Looking angerly at the camera all the world knows this man’s head is about to be sliced off. No one notices the enemy fighter with the fancy American carbine standing guard.

Stick to airplanes @Treetop Flyer, I am certain you are a fantastic aviator. Stick to what you learned in SERE, it will serve you well. Leave the long arm fighting to the guys who know what their doing. Oh, and grow up.

Wow! I swear I could here the Road Runner/Coyote cartoon sound effects as I read that. That is until I had the overwhelming and frantic urge to reach for the trash can under my desk. It's like the anti-gun crowd being afraid of guns all over again.

Without training, something like your story might happen. But I won't say it is likely to happen.

If the Navy is going to say, "Here is your M4, hermetically sealed ammo and magazines", then yeah, you shouldn't carry the weapon. The rest of the services don't appear to do that, so they issue and carry "assault rifles."

Read my prior post about medevac equipment in Iraq. Then imagine strapping into an old aircraft shell in the middle of Texas in 102 degree temps with all of that gear. When you "crash land", everyone gets out, like you briefed, clears the aircraft, sets up defensive positions, firing blanks and reloading as necessary, with "bad guys" coming at you. You escape into the mesquite and evade for an hour or so with ALL of your gear, land nav to several points, activate your radio (for real), call in PR assets, and get rescued. Then debrief for at least an hour. The whole process takes half a day. TRAINING

 

[Griz882]

Wow! I swear I could here the Road Runner/Coyote cartoon sound effects as I read that. That is until I had the overwhelming and frantic urge to reach for the trash can under my desk. It's like the anti-gun crowd being afraid of guns all over again.

Without training, something like your story might happen. But I won't say it is likely to happen.

If the Navy is going to say, "Here is your M4, hermetically sealed ammo and magazines", then yeah, you shouldn't carry the weapon. The rest of the services don't appear to do that, so they issue and carry "assault rifles."

Read my prior post about medevac equipment in Iraq. Then imagine strapping into an old aircraft shell in the middle of Texas in 102 degree temps with all of that gear. When you "crash land", everyone gets out, like you briefed, clears the aircraft, sets up defensive positions, firing blanks and reloading as necessary, with "bad guys" coming at you. You escape into the mesquite and evade for an hour or so with ALL of your gear, land nav to several points, activate your radio (for real), call in PR assets, and get rescued. Then debrief for at least an hour. The whole process takes half a day. TRAINING

I dig it. I believe we are in absolute agreement.

 

[Griz882]

I’m only responding to let you know I didn’t read past your first couple sentences. You’re a fucking clown.

One of my favorite things about Air Warriors is when any discussion about fast-mover tactical air is entered by any person who is not a pointy-nose driver we are told to STFU...because we don't know what we're talking about...BUT...that is not as good as when one is an expert at something else and they still tell us to STFU because we aren't one of them!

I might be a clown...even a fucking one...but I have seen more ground combat then you will ever see.

 

[Griz882]

Jesus...

A) You need to hit them gym if that’s a legitimate issue. Considering the physical fitness/size I have seen in some Navy aircrew....you seriously might have a point... but again that’s a cultural issue.

B) Curious on how you think carrying a hand held radio makes your rifle less effective? The logic jump escapes me.

C) through E). Also something easily fixed with the right equipment. Probably a little overstated as well.

F) More cultural issues.

G) 30” of steel? Dude an M4 is about 15-16” with a collapsible stock.

Last Paragraph: That is complete horseshit. It’s a training issue. If trained properly the M4 is a much more accurate and effective defensive weapon and easier to maneuver with and escape. Also the big difference between 9mm vs high velocity .223. I’ll tell you what...next time you get a chance. Take your M4 (or similarly designed weapon of choice...SBR-type) and a handgun. Literally any handgun. M9, M11, XDM40, whatever... and then take twenty shots with both at 25-50 meters at a non-maneuvering human sized target.

After you do that let me know how you feel about the weapon of choice in the extremely remote chance you’ll have to use it. Sure, I agree evasion and escape is the best course of action. Nobody is denying that...but if the off chance for self-protection is required... don’t you actually want to hit your target?

I absolutely, 100% agree that training is the issue. So tell me, because I don't know, once you've flown your 15 to 25 hours a month, added in the mission briefings and such, completed your squadron duty job, finished evaluating and counseling enlisted folk, finished your physical training, and are all caught up on your online "awareness training," how much time is left for the firing line?

 

[Treetop Flyer]

One of my favorite things about Air Warriors is when any discussion about fast-mover tactical air is entered by any person who is not a pointy-nose driver we are told to STFU...because we don't know what we're talking about...BUT...that is not as good as when one is an expert at something else and they still tell us to STFU because we aren't one of them!

I might be a clown...even a fucking one...but I have seen more ground combat then you will ever see.

Yet virtually every point you tried to make was idiotic. Like saying a miniature M4 is too heavy. Or that you can’t carry one and a CSEL. Or that you can’t land nav with one. Or my favorite: simply possessing one will turn an aviator into a “one man death squad.”

Honestly that is some of the stupidest shit I’ve ever seen on this site, and that’s saying something. So congrats on that, I guess.

 

[Griz882]

Yet virtually every point you tried to make was idiotic. Like saying a miniature M4 is too heavy. Or that you can’t carry one and a CSEL. Or that you can’t land nav with one. Or my favorite: simply possessing one will turn an aviator into a “one man death squad.”

Honestly that is some of the stupidest shit I’ve ever seen on this site, and that’s saying something. So congrats on that, I guess.

Stupid? OK...

So, when was the last time you did land nav with a rifle?
When was the last time you ran 100 yards or more with a rifle and 120 rounds of ammunition? Oh...and then fired that rifle hitting a target?
When is the last time you tried to fire a rifle, with any success, with one hand?
How often have you fired an M4 with the stock collapsed?

This is all about training and you can also answer my other question to @Hotdogs if you'd like. They are all easy questions to answer.

As for the last point, I have said all along it MIGHT give a misplaced feeling of invincibility to a downed airman. If you are smarter than that then rock on. Look, I don't care if you carry chicklets and porn in your seat pan. I respect the skill you have as an aviator. I have been saved outright by good CAS and I love you guys for that. But please, give up the utter bullshit that you are going to eject from an attack aircraft, land in hostile territory, and suddenly be an effective rifleman when you maybe fire for qualification twice a year. Now that, my friend, is utter bullshit.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Stupid? OK...

So, when was the last time you did land nav with a rifle?
When was the last time you ran 100 yards or more with a rifle and 120 rounds of ammunition? Oh...and then fired that rifle hitting a target?
When is the last time you tried to fire a rifle, with any success, with one hand?
How often have you fired an M4 with the stock collapsed?

This is all about training and you can also answer my other question to @Hotdogs if you'd like. They are all easy questions to answer.

As for the last point, I have said all along it MIGHT give a misplaced feeling of invincibility to a downed airman. If you are smarter than that then rock on. Look, I don't care if you carry chicklets and porn in your seat pan. I respect the skill you have as an aviator. I have been saved outright by good CAS and I love you guys for that. But please, give up the utter bullshit that you are going to eject from an attack aircraft, land in hostile territory, and suddenly be an effective rifleman when you maybe fire for qualification twice a year. Now that, my friend, is utter bullshit.

Last time doing land nav with a rifle? TBS I guess. It was easy. Just like land nav at SERE. Or on my FAC tour. Of course then I had a GPS too. Kinda like the GPS I had in my g-suit pocket on combat sorties.

Running and shooting? TBS I suppose.

Shooting with one hand? Not much. Then again, why? I have two hands.

Stock collapsed? Not much.

Now to the main point: no one has said they expect a downed aviator to be “an effective rifleman”. That’s your straw man and yours alone. The idea that having a better sidearm is going to turn pilots into running gunfight Rambo’s is ridiculous and you’re the only one here clinging to that nonsense.

 

[wink]

Got it, we are still not communicating. I’ll try to clear it up.

1. A downed aviator has but one duty, evade and get back in the cockpit where they make marvelous killers.
2. Evasion is more difficult with a rifle because:
A. One M4 style rifle with 120 rounds adds an additional 10 plus pounds to your “escape weight.”
B. Using a PRQ7 while carrying a rifle, while evading, lowers either the effective use of the rifle or the users attention to a potentially
dangerous level.
C. Land navigation (critical component of E&E) is more difficult with a two-handed weapon.
D. Three 30 rounds magazines not effectively secured are shocking loud when you are moving.
E. Those same magazines stuffed for silence in your bag/flightsuit/pockets are now ineffective.
F. Firing at an “A” target twice a year is enough to get a cute ribbon for your uniform but hardly enough to prepare you in the
effective use of a rifle.
G. When you are trying to hide or fit in a small hiding place an extra 30” of inflexible steel is not a good thing.

Lastly, a pistol is designed for self-defense. A rifle is made for offensive operations. Armed with a rifle a pilot, who needs to evade, might feel compelled to stay put are try to fight it put. I have been on only one effort to help a downed Kiowa Warrior crew in Iraq (2006), and trust me, I wish they had been able to evade toward us rather than us maneuvering to them (they could not, they were both injured too badly).

All that said, I am not trying to change your mind, I am just offering a view point based on some hard earned experience on the ground.

I categorically reject that a more capable weapon could not facilitate # 1. If it takes shooting at the enemy to get back to the cockpit, I'd like the best tool for the job. Look, you are welcome to leave your M4 in the seat pan so you can nav, talk on the radio, drink water, or whatever you are afraid a rifle will prevent you from doing. Everyone has an opinion and I expect many of you have already thought out your shoot down plan. In the end, if you think a M4 or similar is a liability, leave it. But if there isn't one in the seat pan, then the guy that wants one just can't magically get one as easily as you can leave a supplied one behind.

Lastly, a pistol is meant to be primarily a defensive weapon. But, it is not true a rifle is an offensive weapon. A rifle or carbine simply allows you to defend yourself at a farther distance and more accurately at shorter distances. In law enforcement a common adage is "your handgun is for fighting your way back to the rifle you left in the car."