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The Return of the Fleming

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
Care to rebut any of Fleming's points instead of dancing around the article with not really so witty phrases?
No, he won't. Why? Because he disagrees with him, and has nothing to back it up - other than he played football at USNA when I was six. Which means (based on his profile - ex NJSP), that he's 2+ decades removed from the military. And has never served in the military during time of war.

Fleming on the other hand, is teaching alongside military officers who HAVE served during time of war. Not only that, but he's teaching young men and women who voluntarily attend a service academy - KNOWING that they'll serve during time of war. He's merely echoing the sentiments that they are unable to. And this is why it resonates a chord with the recent graduates.

bigwill may think he knows a thing or two about USNA and sports, since his whole family was football players (and that's the most important thing in the world). But I call his bluff - and say he's full of bullshit. Why? Oh, I don't know - my dad is USNA '63, and watched Roger Staubauch play (who oh, by the way served his commitment to the military THEN joined the NFL), my brother-in-law was recruited for football and is USNA '93, and is an AD CDR. And of course, I'm a prior-enlisted member of the class of '98. Not to mention I've had season tickets since I was six - and saw people like Napoleon McCallum play. And for the record - I'll talk one Alton Grizzard over 10 Napoleon McCallums...
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
The sky has not fallen, is not falling, and won't fall.

So, why make constructive criticism at all? After all, things are good enough, right?

If he's off base, explain why.

The Academies are like the Marine Corps. The country doesn't need them, it wants them. As long as they're useful, America will pay the bill. If they're seen as anything less than top-notch academic and leadership institutions, they may not go away, but they'll be downsized.

If the leaders of an institution would rather be defensive and ignore problems rather than fix them, then that institution deserves to go.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
Highly Recommended Read for a Taste in Admissions

I definitely feel Professor Fleming's comments. However, I will say that even within the Brigade, his opinions are mixed and people find him polarizing. However, he does speak many truths at least about how the Brigade feels. I'd like to qualify that with, as any alum can attest, the rumor mill vs. what is actually going on at the Academy can be two totally different things. Working in admissions, specifically "Strategic Outreach" (read that how you want it to, but it's the name of my office), I can tell you that things are run much different that most people perceive them at least on the recruiting end of trying to get more candidates. And, I can definitely say that "diversity" on the recruiting end of things is certainly more than what people typically think, which is USNA Admissions is going out ant SEEKING African Americans and Latin-American/Hispanic folks. In fact, and I'll be very general here, but they are seeking geographic diversity as well (and as is mandated by Congress) and trying to get the very best from places that have not typically received plenty of applicants. When North Dakota, Montana and New York City are receiving similar number of applicants, there's a problem for sure. You have to get the word out about the Academy, because, despite what we'd all like to think, it's not as well known or well-perceived as many of us believe. The perfect example is Brooklyn Technical High School, where the kids actually pick MAJORS in high school in engineering/science (oh yeah, we need to increase the numbers going into those majors too). They had a truly bad perception of the Naval Academy/ military (i.e.: Vietnam era-distrust) in general and we had rarely if ever received applicants from that high school. So we invite a few teachers down and show them around, tell them about the opportunities and they are impressed. Bam, we finally get access to recruit there. We get their kids to come down for mini-STEM (science, tech, engineering, math) weekends at the Academy, they can claim a partnership with the Academy, and New York State and the Feds are impressed with their STEM efforts and give them more cash. A few of their kids think in the back of their mind, "hey, the Naval Academy is the place I want to study a STEM major at." What do you know? The plan worked and now we get a large number of HIGHLY qualified applicants from their school. The word spreads around New York City and other high-level high schools try to partner with us and we get even more access to kids. Bam, we're on our way to filling Congressional nominations in New York City for the first time in ages, with highly qualified candidates. And oh, by the way, New York City is as diverse as any place, their applicants are every race and talent under the sun, so that makes Congress and big Navy happy too, all the while, all we did is get more folks to know about the Academy, get them to apply and accept only their best ones. Now, take that model and repeat it across the country in places we don't get many people from: Chicago, Houston, Atlanta, the Midwest, etc. And what do you know, we have nearly 8,000 more kids applying to the Academy/year than just 2 years ago. The number will probably be over 20,000 applicants soon, nearly doubling the number of applications for my Class (2010). The metrics are extremely impressive, and Professor Fleming's view of the Admissions side, at least on recruitment is very skewed.
 

slug

Member
bigwill may think he knows a thing or two about USNA and sports, since his whole family was football players (and that's the most important thing in the world). But I call his bluff - and say he's full of bullshit. Why? Oh, I don't know - my dad is USNA '63, and watched Roger Staubauch play (who oh, by the way served his commitment to the military THEN joined the NFL), my brother-in-law was recruited for football and is USNA '93, and is an AD CDR. And of course, I'm a prior-enlisted member of the class of '98. Not to mention I've had season tickets since I was six - and saw people like Napoleon McCallum play. And for the record - I'll talk one Alton Grizzard over 10 Napoleon McCallums...

Jesus, somone went

Off the Deep End.jpg
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
Now that it's morning, I just re-read my post. I apologize for the poor grammar and spelling, but the point remains the same regarding recruitment and I think it's a message most people aren't aware of.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
I can tell you that things are run much different that most people perceive them at least on the recruiting end of trying to get more candidates. And, I can definitely say that "diversity" on the recruiting end of things is certainly more than what people typically think, which is USNA Admissions is going out ant SEEKING African Americans and Latin-American/Hispanic folks

I appreciate you point of view on the matter as that sheds a good bit of light on the process. That said, what I highlighted is a big part of life, isn't the saying something like perception is 90% of reality?

The point I'm making is that if the Academy is doing those things in an attempt to spread out recruitment, it should actually make an effort at spreading info on what their doing. If not to the general public I would think a nice write up in Shipmate or as a alumni email would at least help empower the alumni to make an educated defense.

That said, I still say that Fleming is pretty accurate. Like anything, the exact truth probably lies somewhere in the middle of Fleming's arguments and the Supe's, but I think the truth right now lies somewhat closer to Fleming's article.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
Insanebikerboy, believe me, I hear you, and I've made my superiors well aware that's what I think, but hey, their call, not mine. Probably not their place to decide it either, and I know they want their story to be told too.
 

sfrankie08

Member
pilot
...USNA Admissions is going out ant SEEKING African Americans and Latin-American/Hispanic folks...trying to get the very best from places that have not typically received plenty of applicants...

Yes, I worked in the Admissions office after graduation for a few months as well and was part of these "outreach missions", except I drove around MD/VA who have plenty of applicants. I was interviewing and sometimes literally trying to "sell" the Academy to HS studs who weren't at all interested in it. Maybe I feel differently than others, but I don't think I should have to CONVINCE someone to go to any Academy. I will gladly dispel rumors and give more information on it, but literally trying to convince a HS student who wants to go to [insert other college here] to major in [anatomy/pre-med/art - any other major the Academy doesn't have] is not where they should be focusing their effort/time/money.
I would argue that USNA isn't trying to get "the very best from places that have not typically received plenty of applicants" -- they are just trying to get people in general from these places.
All applicants I visited were in one way/shape/form a minority, and let's just say I still agree with Fleming's "lowering of standards" argument.
 

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor
Do you apply to the Academy into a "College", or just the overall Academy and then later pick a track? I guess I'm just wondering why you're having trouble finding technical major students.
 
Yes, I worked in the Admissions office after graduation for a few months as well and was part of these "outreach missions", except I drove around MD/VA who have plenty of applicants. I was interviewing and sometimes literally trying to "sell" the Academy to HS studs who weren't at all interested in it. Maybe I feel differently than others, but I don't think I should have to CONVINCE someone to go to any Academy. I will gladly dispel rumors and give more information on it, but literally trying to convince a HS student who wants to go to [insert other college here] to major in [anatomy/pre-med/art - any other major the Academy doesn't have] is not where they should be focusing their effort/time/money.
I would argue that USNA isn't trying to get "the very best from places that have not typically received plenty of applicants" -- they are just trying to get people in general from these places.
All applicants I visited were in one way/shape/form a minority, and let's just say I still agree with Fleming's "lowering of standards" argument.


Completely agree. Someone shouldn't need any more incentive besides getting a chance to serve their country and a free education. This is what bothers me most about the football recruiting- they shouldn't need to ask people to go to USNA. Our military deserves people who go out of their way to join- not people who happened to like what they heard when they asked, 'What's in it for me?'
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
Do you apply to the Academy into a "College", or just the overall Academy and then later pick a track? I guess I'm just wondering why you're having trouble finding technical major students.

You pick your major after the first year, basic gen eds up to that point. I would imagine that technical majors are hard enough without having to deal with the added stress of the Academy, so that may be a turn-off for some people. I'm a perfect example, I was thinking engineering when I first got to plebe summer but after the first school year I quickly changed my mind and chose math instead.
 

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor
You pick your major after the first year, basic gen eds up to that point. I would imagine that technical majors are hard enough without having to deal with the added stress of the Academy, so that may be a turn-off for some people. I'm a perfect example, I was thinking engineering when I first got to plebe summer but after the first school year I quickly changed my mind and chose math instead.

I can see that being an issue. After a year, that's a tough sell to make it harder. My engineering degree was hard enough as is, and that was with lucrative job offers waiting for me on the other end.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Our military deserves people who go out of their way to join- not people who happened to like what they heard when they asked, 'What's in it for me?'
If you're down with meeting 75 percent of our needs, then your above idea works great. I don't care if a sailor is in for life, or if they're going to get out in 4, drop the GI bill money and go to college. All I care is that they do their job.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
If you're down with meeting 75 percent of our needs, then your above idea works great. I don't care if a sailor is in for life, or if they're going to get out in 4, drop the GI bill money and go to college. All I care is that they do their job.

I regretfully concede your point about filling the remaining 25% of our needs (or whatever the number is).

JMHO, I would like it if a lot more people signed up for 4 and got out because that would make the supposed gap between society and the military a lot less (ie. a greater part of the population would have served). I "get" the highly skilled, professional/volunteer/takes-a-long-time-to-train-people-for-their-jobs modern military... I also think if we went to the other extreme where everybody who joined "did their 20," then only a very small part of the population would have served.

I dislike "what's in it for me" based recruiting. I wonder how many people get turned off by that. Why is it that the Marines base their recruiting on slogans like "be a part of something greater than yourself" (I think that's the latest one) and never seem to have trouble meeting their recruiting goals? That and fighting fire dragons on mountaintops :)
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
Why is it that the Marines base their recruiting on slogans like "be a part of something greater than yourself" (I think that's the latest one) and never seem to have trouble meeting their recruiting goals?
It's kind of funny to watch the newest Navy/Army/Air Force recruiting ads - and they're trying to mimic USMC recruiting's success. Accelerate your Life, Army Strong, We've been waiting for you, etc... All examples of trying to tap something other than the "We can give you $X for college." The problem is, the Army, Navy & Air Force are all large services. You're never going to be able to recruit using the types of altruistic messages that the Marine Corps uses. Yeah, you may get some - but most people view the Marine Corps as some mystical fighting force, and that it's elite. Because we're so small, we can capitalize on that - and still hit our recruiting goals because we need less people.

That and fighting fire dragons on mountaintops :)
It's a lava monster, thank you very much. ;)
 
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