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The Great AW Working Hours Debate of 2018

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I wonder if this is a nuke thing? I saw this more than a few times with RO's.

It is interesting though that the feeling is that if the CO is there then the JO's, CPO's, etc..... need to be there, but when it comes to CPO's and the junior guys I wouldn't leave until my guys that weren't on duty had left for the day.
I don't think it's a nuke thing. I think that the professional relationship is just different. The civilian analogue relationship between a CPO and junior enlisted would be a foreman with workers. What junior enlisted do on a day-to-day basis is closely managed and supervised by the LPO and CPO, and this includes when the work is done for the day.

Meanwhile, the relationship of JOs/DHs to the front office is that of a support staff to assist the command in making decisions to accomplish the mission, as well as managing all the things that keep your piece of the unit ready to do so. The civilian analogue would be a relationship between senior and junior executives. As an officer if you're being told what to do and when to do it, it's an indication that you're screwing up at a high rate of speed. That includes the fact that you're expected to know when you have to show up and when you're done for the day without being told.

I don't know if the expectation in the corporate world exists for junior execs and executive assistants to work longer hours than their bosses, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
 

Pags

Well-Known Member
pilot
Yeah. Yeah it does.
IMO a "you don't have to go home but you can't stay here" followed by the boss leaving sends a more powerful message than the boss sticking around. A boss that PTs during working hours and who leaves at a set time most days also sends a message about working hour expectations.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
IMO a "you don't have to go home but you can't stay here" followed by the boss leaving sends a more powerful message than the boss sticking around. A boss that PTs during working hours and who leaves at a set time most days also sends a message about working hour expectations.
I understand the sentiment, but sometimes the boss sticks around because it's the only time he/she can get some work done because everyone else has left/isn't there.
 

Pags

Well-Known Member
pilot
I understand the sentiment, but sometimes the boss sticks around because it's the only time he/she can get some work done because everyone else has left/isn't there.
I get that too, but the Boss needs to realize there are optics at work. The Boss may need to work longer hours to be able to attend meetings and respond to all the correspondence and complete a pile of performance appraisals but I'd offer that this needs to be balanced with the optics. I'd also offer that a Boss sends a good message by having and maintaining a set schedule and not deviating from it unless required. It makes the team plan better and sends a message about proper time management and how the office response to issues. Bosses need to understand that if they work 12hrs then others will see this as a goal to meet or beat. Here's where things like remote access can come in to play for things like catching up on email.

If I consistently call the team at 5:30pm with questions that need immediate answers then I'm possibly driving behavioral responses. If I wait to ask the same question the next morning then it transforms the task from a crisis to routine. Odds are I could wait for the answer because everyone up the chain has gone home by 5:30.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I understand the sentiment, but sometimes the boss sticks around because it's the only time he/she can get some work done because everyone else has left/isn't there.
There's a difference between sometimes sticking around late to catch up on correspondence/paperwork/whatever because the day was just packed with meetings and unexpected issues to resolve, and always sticking around late. The former is unavoidable sometimes, the latter just shows poor prioritization and time management.
 

Pags

Well-Known Member
pilot
The other thing drives a lot of people to GTFO of the office is kids and both parents working. Between my wife and I one of us has to get the kids by 6pm or CPS gets called. We both have careers so it takes a bit of coordination to pull off. Also, there are actvities to do after school that the kids need to get to as well. Odds are the couple that was working 60+hr weeks prior to kids will see a change when they have two school aged kids.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
If I consistently call the team at 5:30pm with questions that need immediate answers then I'm possibly driving behavioral responses. If I wait to ask the same question the next morning then it transforms the task from a crisis to routine. Odds are I could wait for the answer because everyone up the chain has gone home by 5:30.
Valid, but I think we're crossing the streams here. If Boss is staying late and closes the door and does his own thing after telling everyone to leave, that's one thing. If Boss is sticking around and then continuing to ask questions/task, then I'm with you...that both sends the wrong message and makes life worse.

Back to my original idea of sending people home because then Boss can do work in piece...I was referring to the prior in the above scenario.

There's a difference between sometimes sticking around late to catch up on correspondence/paperwork/whatever because the day was just packed with meetings and unexpected issues to resolve, and always sticking around late. The former is unavoidable sometimes, the latter just shows poor prioritization and time management.
Very true. See above. Because it's the internet, I think "we" are lumping both scenarios into one Boss. No doubt because we've experienced each kind first hand.
 
Down at Bragg and some other places, our best work was done post 1700-1800 over giant as balls frosty mugs of beer. Maybe even some harder stuff if team members showed up or we had some A-10 or Beagle folks in the house. The COL or higher would just sit in there sipping....and watch us make sausage. Never had that With Navy leadership, just JO level. Different world.

ATIS
 

Sculpin

"Nobody ever changed the world on 40 hours a week"
Worth linking these articles from earlier in the thread (some points overlap) because it's an issue some of my friends and colleagues throughout the company and other companies bring up with me often and I feel it's worth pointing out.
It sometimes surprises people to hear being a high performer isn't always a good thing, but it's possible for it to be a bad thing because there's a human factor to everything. Your co-workers could resent you, or feel pressure from higher-ups, or a whole host of other things.

I've personally experienced many of the points being made. The contradiction lies in the fact there's always work to be done and deadlines and milestones to be met. When things get rough and you're the person having the tenacity to step up to the plate or the go-to because you can be relied upon to bring home the bacon, it can be a damned if you perform well, damned if you don't sort of situation. And it all depends on the people you work with. I've worked with people who epitomize the points made in the above articles, and others who are incredibly supportive, appreciative, and collaborative. The course of action to take when encountered with the former group to mitigate negativity depends on the specific scenario, but that's another discussion. Basically, if for example management tells you they wish the rest of the team was operating at your level, that statement reflecting a good or bad thing for you is entirely dependent on the substance of the people around you and to what extent you're able to navigate a less-than-positive scenario.
 
A problem I've run into is being a victim of my own success. Basically I want to train to be a machinist. So at the place I work, they have this part of the shop that is a production area for a major component for a major company. And this is a major money area for the business. Anyways, it is primarily staffed by machine operators, i.e. monkeys trained just enough to run the machines. Load raw stock in, take finished parts out, measure said parts on a coordinate measuring machine, change tools in the machine, make offsets, etc...rinse and repeat. To learn actual machining, one must move up to the front of the shop, which is where the actual machinist work is done (i.e. read prints, use various measuring instruments, make calculations, etc...).

Well anyways, so I figured in order to get moved up front, I would do my absolute best on the various jobs in the back part. It is also just my nature to do my best on things. So I made sure to learn to run pretty much all the machines and run them well, and did extremely well at what is a fairly physically demanding, ultra-monkey job (put parts in, take parts out, assemble, repeat). WELLL.....it turns out that most people suck at the physically demanding, ultra-monkey job. But I work out with weights a lot and it is in my nature to move around fast and do my best, so I am able to assemble these parts faster than anyone else basically, and with solid quality, and thus put out large numbers of them, which they like. SOOO....guess what machine they have semi-permanently decided to stick me on? :mad: Meanwhile, the guys who are NOT good on the monkey machine get to run the more brainpower-oriented, less-demanding machines :(

It can really be a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't. They won't necessarily move you up front if you half ass things or are lousy, but if you show initiative and thoroughly learn all the machines and can run them well, including the monkey machine, then you are now very valuable for that area of the shop and they want to keep you there.
 
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