Well we copied the fresnal lens, angled deck and steam catapult from the Brits.... Where would the U.S. Navy be today with the Royal Navy to use as a starting point? (To include pretty much every custom we use today)
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The Chinese officially have a Boat...
- Thread starter Uncle Fester
- Start date
Well we copied the fresnal lens, angled deck and steam catapult from the Brits.... Where would the U.S. Navy be today with the Royal Navy to use as a starting point? (To include pretty much every custom we use today)
Ya but we beat them twice before we stole thier traditions, then saved thier asses before we used thier technology.
When they're regularly conducting sustainment ops outside of the South China Sea, then I might invoke the word astounding. That requires more than the ability to reliably do RAS. Part of our unmatched sustainment ability is our vast network of bases and logistics hubs. China currently lacks this capability... but they're working on it. Until then, they're just getting their feet wet.
I think we're arguing over interpretation of the word "astounding." I probably should've chosen my adjectives more carefully.
The point I was trying to make is that they have progressed quite rapidly in the last 6-7 years. I definitely don't think they're near where we are in global projection, or even likely in the next 20 years, unless we help close the gap by dropping the ball on our end. But they've gone from buying shitty Russian and Euro COTS crap in the mid 2000's, to rolling out badly made, under-performing knockoffs, to rolling out their own fairly high end threat SAMs, ASCMs, and surface ships. They also have shown they're willing to learn from what works well for us, while also pursuing options we've ignored when there's potential for benefit. And do they really need to project beyond the Pacific Rim and Indian Ocean/East Africa?
Sure, it's not a cohesive CSG, but if they continue to throw the resources and motivation they've shown in the past at the problem, they also get the advantage of not being the first ones to figure out the best practices.
I guess I look at it as an interesting barometer of how the Chinese see themselves. No point building a tool unless there is a job for it...you build the fleet that you see yourself using. The idea for Virginia class was driven not just by cost, but by the idea that we would be engaging in more littoral ASW and submarine driven special ops...What they decide to build once they develop a core tactical proficiency will be interesting.
This discussion makes me want to spend more time looking at PLAN resupply capabilities and coastal real estate purchases.
Some Chinese companies are making a shitpot of money off western debt, yes. But that booming Chinese economy which allows them to buy up debt is based upon those same western countries buying Chinese goods, exporting manufacturing.
And much of the domestic prosperity is based on government subsidies of domestic consumer consumption. Remember Cash for Clunkers? Expand that to every kind of consumer durable (refrigerators, cars, TVs, etc) and carry it on for almost a decade. That's what the Chinese government is doing, and its really damn expensive, and the party's about to end.
Stop thinking of China as a monolithic, Party-run, centralized state. That was China under Mao, not the China of 2012. The country is rapidly backsliding into warlordism, which has been its normal form of government for most of its history. Just now instead of Mongol chieftains, it's regional Party apparatchiks, PLA officers, or super-capitalists running their own fiefs without much regard to Beijing.
The Party, PLA and MSS operate as independent political entities, and are actively feuding with each other. There are apparently gangs - literally gangs - of junior PLA officers who will do things like kidnap regional Party bosses and hold them to ransom. It'd be like JOPA carjacking a Congressman and demanding more OPTAR, promotions, and some of those spiffy Wiley-X flight gloves.
Add to the mix that Beijing is getting worse and worse at Internet censorship - or rather, they can't keep up with the technology - and add restive ethnic minorities and burgeoning middle class that's getting tired of being shaken down by whatever local thug's in charge. It's not a recipe for continued success.
So yeah, there are a few Chinese who own all that debt, but its not some kind of endless cash cow that immediately gets funneled into aircraft carriers and J-20s.
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And lest we forget <cough> currency crisis <cough cough> radically undervalued currency <cough cough>
Now there's an idea.
The O-4s and above in the crowd, we're old enough to remember when Japan was going to own everything by 2010. Then their economy fell off a cliff in the '90's and they still haven't recovered. As economists like to say, anything that can't go on forever, won't.
I predict this shiny new Boat will be for sale to India or Brazil in about 10 years' time.
I predict this shiny new Boat will be for sale to India or Brazil in about 10 years' time.
Fascinating stuff in your other post. Any reading material you'd recommend from that perspective on China's internal workings?
Looking for something a little more oriented toward the political and social dimension vice maritime.
I get a lot of good stuff from Foreign Policy, especially about China. In general they're pretty common sense and centrist, and do a good job tying together history, politics, economics and defense worldwide. Thomas Ricks blogs for them now.
