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Sully retires ...

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
O.K. ... here we go again ... rant on:
...
If you have to make it up as you go along ... make up the 'right' thing to do ... if you always need 'policy guidance' from above .... then something's missing in your basic skills, your basic knowledge, your basic judgment, your basic commitment, and your basic guts.

Some things you just know. If you don't 'know what you'd do' until you're face w/ a situation in extremis -- then stay out of my airplane. It's got nothing to do w/ John Wayne (who never served, by the way), but it's got everything with doing the right thing. When you come into the US military, there's just some things that don't require thinking and re-thinking and re-re-thinking and 'policy guidance' and 'direction' from higher-ups. Some things require a simple gut-check. To repeat: some things you just know.

If you don't 'know' that simple truth of military service and aren't willing to make the commitment to it, then you're in the WRONG line of work.

If you're a Naval Aviator and you still 'don't know it' ... then what can we say?? You make the argument for me.

Rant off.

*edit* .... actually ... no it's not ... some things just don't change, do they.


Good rant. I see we are back on the same page, after a brief one-day divergence. ;)

Maybe it's old school.... But it is right school. Apples & oranges I know, but Captain Bucher had no real options, yet he was criticized unmercifully, not to mention his court martial following torture and imprisionment. Osborne had other options. He picked the wrong one. And people have long rationalized that wrong choice.

As far as Sully goes, I will wait for the final NTSB report.

PS: Re Bac Mai airfield.... Ah, probably not a good divert choice....


bacmai.jpg
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
Shane Osborne flew his bird into the bad-guy airport that was 'owned' by the ChiCom assholes he was eye-balling/surveiling and in my opinion it was a huge mistake. If he was driving a city bus -- OR AN AIRLINER ... then fine ... that's just great. But when he's flying a WARPLANE of our country and doing a 'REAL' mission against a 'hostile' country ... then what he did was a disgrace. It's my opinion and it ain't gonna' change.

He saved his crew, and that's great; that's always a plus. But ... there's some things that require a 'higher calling' than just saving your own asses. Saving your OWN lives is not necessarily the first concern of a military leader. That's one of the hard facts when you're in the military ... that's what's required sometimes ... making the 'hard decisions' ... and while no one 'wants to die', it might require that you put the MISSION and the COUNTRY before yourself. I note with passing interest who on this website continually puts 'crew lives' above the 'mission' and/or 'national interests'. Don't you guys EVER quit rationalizing ??? That tells me a lot about mindsets and training and the motivation of some individuals in the different communities ... and it's got NOTHING to do w/ whether or not you fly ATTACK or Fighter or HELOs or VP or any of the rest ... as I've seen it in the airlines, too -- it'd that different 'approach' to flying and 'tough stuff' when looked at by former military jocks vs. some former civie-street-trained jocks. Basically, it's a lot of what you 'bring to the party' when you sign up ...

But here's a bit of truth: the USN ain't the fucking airlines, is it ??? And it's not a fucking walk in the park, either ... sometimes you just have to suck it up ... you have to fish or cut bait.

Shane Osborne did a great job of flying and recovering from the proverbial death spiral. But then -- he flew his airplane -- part of his national trust -- into enemy hands. If Osborne did such a great fucking job of leadership and judgment -- then riddle me this: why did he 'get out' at the first opportunity? He would have/should have been GOLDEN for continuation in the USN and further success ... oh, that's right ... he wasn't and/or he didn't.

If you have to make it up as you go along ... make up the 'right' thing to do ... if you always need 'policy guidance' from above .... then something's missing in your basic skills, your basic knowledge, your basic judgment, your basic commitment, and your basic guts.

Some things you just know. If you don't 'know what you'd do' until you're face w/ a situation in extremis -- then stay out of my airplane. It's got nothing to do w/ John Wayne (who never served, by the way), but it's got everything with doing the right thing. When you come into the US military, there's just some things that don't require thinking and re-thinking and re-re-thinking and 'policy guidance' and 'direction' from higher-ups. Some things require a simple gut-check. To repeat: some things you just know.

If you don't 'know' that simple truth of military service and aren't willing to make the commitment to it, then you're in the WRONG line of work.

If you're a Naval Aviator and you still 'don't know it' ... then what can we say?? You make the argument for me.

Rant off.

*edit* .... actually ... no it's not ... some things just don't change, do they.

[/B]

A4's you OLD ORNERY BASTARD!!! We'll have to agree to disagree. Nice story though....however, that's shooting war versus not a shooting war, or even war so I don't see how it applies in this situation. I understand China is not a friend and wanted that equipment...maybe for use and for sale to the lowest bidder. Shane did what he had to do, saved his crew but didn't completely destroy the stuff. Bad on him but good on him saving the lives crew in what he felt was the right thing to do. Whether he got out on his own accord or was forced out of the Navy, nobody knows but Osbourne...my crystal ball is fuzzy on that one though. You seem to know or am I reading that wrong? So in the end, save your internet tough guy rant for face to face confrontations. Don't preach to me or any other experienced aviator here about being a patriot or Naval Aviator. I've got 17 years active duty that I'm pretty fucking sure means I don't need a lecture from a guy like you. So that's right old man, I'll be in Hawaii at the end of April for a conference. I'll be at Duke's and you can bring that tough guy shit there and let me have it. I'll drink a beer with you and try not to laugh if you do. Believe me, I can take it so BRING IT!!! :tongue2_1
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
While nothing is sacred anymore, this Hudson River landing video spoof has some humor. Enjoy. And who knew... the ending moral of the story?

 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Hero pilot Chesley 'Sully' Sullenberger suing Sonoma bank

"Captain Chesley Sullenberger and his wife, Lorraine, claim the former Sonoma National Bank and others duped them into purchasing property... for an overinflated price of $935,000 in 2002"

"'I think it's unfortunate that he's taking advantage of his notoriety to try and pursue a lawsuit, when the building was leased and they were enjoying the benefits of an income stream,' said Cherie Huillade, a senior vice president for Grubb & Ellis ..."
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
PS: Re Bac Mai airfield.... Ah, probably not a good divert choice....


bacmai.jpg

Something tells me that those neighborhoods never complained about the jet noise.....

A4's, well said......my old man, a 1960's era P-2V driver, shared similar sentiments when it all went down. Maybe that's the difference between flying in a community that is being shot at (as many of the patrol folks were in those days), and one that is not....
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Interesting and comprehensive reconstruction of Cactus Flt. 1549 that ended up in the Hudson with some new information....

LINKY
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
OK, I'll say it, only because it came up again just a week or so ago. No dig on Sullenburger, his pax and crew came out none the worse for wear, but damn if I am not tired of hearing how great Sullenberger is from people that know nothing about anything. Just a week or so ago, another person, learning I was an airline pilot, sang Sullenberger's praises and wanted to know how great I thought he was. I can think of other feats of airmanship that equals or exceeds Sullenberger's. What is a guy supposed to say without sounding like an ass? From what I hear from guys that knew Sullenberger, he is tired of it too. Good for him.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
Good for him for head work and quick decision making. Ditching an airplane is something your average 2p can do just fine...
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
Last edited:

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
[This is a repost of what I said on my private airline forum.]

It upsets me that this is often called, The Miracle on the Hudson. While it was a challenging situation and a fortunate outcome, it was hardly a “miracle.” Most everyone I flew with could have probably done as well. Ditching in a wide and long, wet landing strip, even if it is water and without thrust is certainly doable for most of us. And if you seek miracles, I vote for Al Haynes in Sioux City and his partners.

While we all are aware of the TOGO issue, some other things make this less than perfect. To wit from the NTSB report:

16. “The captain’s difficulty maintaining his intended airspeed during the final approach resulted in high angles-of-attack, which contributed to the difficulties in flaring the airplane, the high descent rate at touchdown, and the fuselage damage.”

"The investigation determined that the airplane’s descent rate at the time it impacted the water was 12.5 fps, more than three times the descent rate of 3.5 fps assumed during ditching certification… which significantly exceeded the values established to demonstrate compliance with the certification criteria. These external pressures were sufficient to cause the large-scale collapse and failure of the aft fuselage frames, cargo floor, and passenger floor struts and to initiate cracking of the lower fuselage skin, allowing water to enter the airplane. Further, the water ingress and continued forward motion of the airplane through the water resulted in post impact pressures and suction forces that caused additional damage, including the failure of the lower fuselage skin panel and aft pressure bulkhead. Therefore, the NTSB concludes that the airframe damage was caused by the high-energy impact at the aft fuselage and the ensuing forward motion of the airplane through the water."


This is from simulator recreations:

"During the first flight scenario, all of the pilots were able to achieve a successful landing in both simulators. The flight path angles at touchdown for these landings ranged from -0.8° to -1.3°. Regarding the second flight scenario, 20 runs were performed in the engineering simulator from a preprogrammed point shortly before the loss of engine thrust in which pilots attempted to return to either runway 13 or 22 at LGA or runway 19 at TEB. Five of the 20 runs were discarded because of poor data or simulator malfunctions. Of the 15 remaining runs, in 6, the pilot attempted to land on runway 22 at LGA; in 7, the pilot attempted to land on runway 13 at LGA; and in 2, the pilot attempted to land on runway 19 at TEB. In eight of the 15 runs (53 percent), the pilot successfully landed after making an immediate turn to an airport after the loss of engine thrust. Specifically, two of the six runs to land on runway 22 at LGA, five of the seven runs to land on runway 13 at LGA, and one of the two runs to land on runway 19 at TEB immediately after the loss of engine thrust were successful.88 One run was made to return to an airport (runway 13 at LGA) after a 35-second delay,89 and the landing was not successful.

"Regarding the third flight scenario, a total of 14 runs were performed in the engineering simulator in which pilots attempted to touch down on the water within a target flightpath angle of -0.5°, consistent with the structural ditching certification criteria. Two of the 14 runs were discarded because of poor data. Of the remaining 12 runs, 4 were attempted using CONF 2, 4 were attempted using CONF 3, and 4 were attempted using CONF 3/Slats only."

"In 11 of the 12 runs, the touchdown flightpath angle ranged between -1.5° and -3.6° (the touchdown flightpath angle achieved on the accident flight was -3.4°). In 1 of these 12 runs, a -0.2° touchdown flightpath angle was achieved by an Airbus test pilot who used a technique that involved approaching the water at a high speed, leveling the airplane a few feet above the water with the help of the radar altimeter, and then bleeding off airspeed in ground effect until the airplane settled into the water."​

The NTSB concludes that the captain’s difficulty maintaining his intended airspeed during the final approach resulted in high AOAs, which contributed to the difficulties in flaring the airplane, the high descent rate at touchdown, and the fuselage damage.

Miracle my ass. A caveman could have done as well, if not better.
 

Yardstick

Is The Bottle Ready?!
pilot
[This is a repost of what I said on my private airline forum.]

It upsets me that this is often called, The Miracle on the Hudson. While it was a challenging situation and a fortunate outcome, it was hardly a “miracle.” Most everyone I flew with could have probably done as well. Ditching in a wide and long, wet landing strip, even if it is water and without thrust is certainly doable for most of us. And if you seek miracles, I vote for Al Haynes in Sioux City and his partners.



This is from simulator recreations:
Of the 15 remaining runs, in 6, the pilot attempted to land on runway 22 at LGA; in 7, the pilot attempted to land on runway 13 at LGA; and in 2, the pilot attempted to land on runway 19 at TEB. In eight of the 15 runs (53 percent), the pilot successfully landed after making an immediate turn to an airport after the loss of engine thrust. Specifically, two of the six runs to land on runway 22 at LGA, five of the seven runs to land on runway 13 at LGA, and one of the two runs to land on runway 19 at TEB immediately after the loss of engine thrust were successful.88 One run was made to return to an airport (runway 13 at LGA) after a 35-second delay,89 and the landing was not successful.



Miracle my ass. A caveman could have done as well, if not better.

So let me get this straight; under perfect conditions, the test subjects were able to do it barely better than 50% of the time, knowing exactly what was going to happen? Yeah, Sully made the right call with the info he had at the time and not expecting it like the test pilots did. A 50% chance of being successful does not outweigh the chance of wadding it up short of the runway, likely killing a nonzero amount of pax and crew, not to mention innocent bystanders on the ground. And that probability of success goes down when you throw real world factors in the mix. It's mystifying to me why you have such an axe to grind. He, his crew and pax all walked away. He did a fine job. End of story
 
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