USN Showdown between Super Hornet and F-35

[Hotdogs]

I am not going to have a solid discussion with you because this isn't SECRET Airwarriors. I'm regurgitating because you keep arguing the same shit, and it's dumb.

It's hard enough to defend the existence of a CSG, with all of it's striking power, and defensive capabilities. The ARG may be the tip of the ground spear, but it is not the tip of the big picture spear. Period. At the point you come into play the AF and big decks have already done their job and now you have the freedom to do CAS. Unless you have stealth ships. And stealth helos. And stealth Ospreys for refueling.

Just because a bunch of Marines write down a bunch of concepts doesn't mean they are smart. Unless you all believe "Leeroy Jenkins" is actually a smart way of doing things. Then good luck to you and your ARG. I'm glad I'll never be a part of that mess.

Hey man, if you don't want to be a part of the conversation then don't post. Otherwise, try not to be an asshole when you put finger to plastic. Lots of this discussion is not classified, and is based on a lot of doctrine and concepts well with in the public domain. No one is suggesting throwing around o-plans on AW, but it is a convenient veil for you to hide behind. I'm glad you don't want any part of it, and that there are professionals willing to discuss the future and the DoN's involvement in it. Thanks for your contribution.

Even then, when was the last time the BLT were the first and only ground forces engaged in combat?

We keep holding onto these ideals that are antiquated. Two weeks ago someone reminded me that "it was the Marine Corps who invented CAS. We are innovators!" News Flash: That was a century ago, and a century before that Presley O'Bannon did his whole North African thing. I feel like the Marine Corps is systemically losing touch with reality. We are trying to be a force that can do everything- and (in my not so humble opinion) we are going down a road in which we become a force that can't do a damn thing on our own. We can't be an all in one crisis response force for a peer adversary. We need more ass and more capability than what an ARG parked off the coast can bring. There is more combat power in the AF F-22/B-2/AWACS Exped rapid deployment program than any MEU could dream of. Those guys are the tip of the spear. Those are the guys you're going to call for the Battle of the South China Sea, with the Navy on their heels. Marine Corps? Maybe we'll join the fight a few days later...

I find your lack of faith disturbing Swanee. You've been hanging around the USAF and Navy too much.

The 15th and 22nd MEU's BLT was engaged in combat as a whole in SW AFG at the onset of OEF. We can debate what it actually accomplished in terms of the total effort in early OEF, but there were in fact no other conventional units there at the time. You can't control a population the size of Alabama with a territory the size of Texas with SOF units. Secondly, most recently in Iraq, we have sent MEU BLT Marines forward, and although not engaging in direct combat, are providing needed support that other units in CENTCOM can't or are not able to do.

The Marine Corps has never been able to do anything on it's own, whether it's ships, armor, or logistics, we doctrinally are designed can't do a lot of stuff on our own. I second Treetop's comments on where along the spectrum we are most likely to operate, but as noted earlier we need the ability to operate in all regimes of said spectrum. I don't know why you're comparing a MEU to an aircraft that's a part of the nuclear triad for, but okay. Not even sure where the logic in the statement is coming from, but I'm assuming it's due to the impression that we need F-35Bs to be day 1 players, and that's not the case. Basic proliferation of weapon systems over time and advancement of said systems is a good driving factor. In case anyone was wondering why Russia sells it's shit to everyone. Unfortunately, that means we'll have $3 billion LHD/As, with $100 million aircraft dropping $100k bombs on Mohamed Jihads in sneakers making $15 pipe bombs and RCIEDs in their mom's backyard.

 

[Hotdogs]

This is incorrect. Big brother was right around the corner drilling holes in the sea, waiting on the call. We only used the MEU to prove we need the MEU.

No you weren't. "Big Brother" was nearly >1,500 miles east of the Wasp....in the Persian Gulf....

Additionally, take a look at the target sets and see if you think it required an entire CVW. Here I'll help you...

http://www.africom.mil/tags/operation-odyssey-lightning...

 

[pourts]

.50 cal is a fucking joke for a mission like that. I would love to see that fixed weapon system try to shoot a moving target on a moped. You need something north of 20mm with HEI and preferably airburst, but that's another debate. At any rate the COIN aircraft is 15 years too late and now all we have is a bunch of assholes running around nostalgic about strafing at dudes a la Vietnam or Korea. It would've been nice to have, and I would expound on what would be good loadout from a light attack COIN standpoint, but not when it's already a done deal and not going to happen.

Aegis in the ARG? Fighting a peer adversary? Uh.... I think absolutely. I think you're looking at this from one end of the spectrum and not it's entirety. The MEU does need the JSF if we're going to be able to provide the same capability at the high end of the spectrum. Apparently some one at HQMC agrees and wants to keep F-35Bs in the MEU. We can debate the likely hood of it ever going that route, but we're already down a rabbit hole. As far as production delays, it's easy to point fingers at the Marines for not getting what they ordered and causing significant issues (much of which I am not familiar) but in reality it is on the company and management for over promising and under delivering. We can also debate (which I think we can agree on) as far as the decisions that put Marine F/A-18s in their current readiness situation, and that we should have bought E/Fs while waiting on the F-35B, especially if the Corps was going to remain committed to providing TAI boat squadrons for the Navy. Apparently rumor on the street is that I would be castrated for bringing up such heresy to the people who make these important decisions.

The point of the Bastion story was that F/A-18s weren't there, and that runway could've been a lot shorter or non-existent (which it was at one point). It is also similar of the advantages for VMA/HMLA sitting off of the coast on an LHD/LPD waiting to get launched on an alert. A MEU and ACE CO may want dedicated C-130s vice Harriers for the ACE, but I assure you that the COCOM at whatever theater they are operating in probably would disagree. The Libyan operation last summer killing shit heads would've been a non-starter.

.50Cal: Well, its bigger than the 7.62mm on the left side of the Huey, and I have seen that used to great effect. Gun isn't the best weapon for a mover for any FW, except maybe A-10s. That's what AGR-20's (APKWS) and GBU-54 are for. The platform's selling point isn't the gun though, its everything else, and the fact that it is cheap, bought off the shelf, and can be re-sold to the Phillipines, Columbia, or about 40 other countries who will have those platforms for the next 30 years.

F-35 in the MEU: Someone wants F-35 in the MEU because they want the same toys the other boys have, and they want to protect their rice bowl. "If we're going to be able to provide the same capability at the high end of the spectrum." The whole point is that the MEU doesn't have to fight at the high end of the spectrum. The MEU is not going to start the next war by itself. That turkey shoot in Libya doesn't count, and Harriers from the MEU weren't the only asset available nor the only asset that could have performed that mission. Here's another way to crack that egg. Any conflict that requires the JSF on day 1 will be sourced strategic assets. There's a reason there are beds in the B-2. Even USMC leadership will tell you in their best propaganda voice "the MEU is the nation's middle weight fighter." Its no light weight, but its no heavyweight either. Its a great Swiss Army tool but its not a Sledgehammer (CSG or Air Force Global Strike), nor a scalpel (theater SOF or Tier 1). It is pretty good at a lot of things though.

What COCOM thinks about MEU Harriers: When I was on the MEU I used to think we were a big deal. 6 months in the CENTCOM CAOC made me realize we aren't. The COCOM doesn't care about the Harriers on the MEU, nor about the Harriers doing an expeditionary det. Hop on SIPR and pull down the CENTCOM ATO if you don't believe me. The COCOM loves having the MEU, but he isn't going to invade Iran with it-- and that's not even a peer!

The Marine Corps is a fantastic organization for our nation, but it isn't the whole military. There are lots of very capable, purpose built units and capabilities out there that further our nation's interests. If you get the chance to do a tour outside the USMC (a MEU doesn't count) it will really open your eyes to the true purpose and necessity of the MEU.

 

[pourts]

Sure you can bomb mud huts with JSOWs from an F-35, but it doesn't seem like you're getting your ROI. Of course if a peer adversary doesn't step up to the plate then you might as well put those F-35s to use as opposed to leaving them on the bench.

There does seem to some value in a low end piece of the military based on the last 10yrs, but what do you do with your 100 A-29s when you're no longer bombing mud huts and now you've got to go against an IADS or fight the Battle of the East China Sea?

These are the troubles that keep ROs busy.

Sell them to Afghanistan, Angola, Burkina Faso, Chile, Columbia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Ghana, Honduras, Indonesia, Lebanon, Mali, Mauritania or Senegal.

Or, if we are talking about the AT-6, de-mil it and use it in primary.

Or, sell them to a civilian company that will operate them as contract CAS for TACP students, getting FW controls at a fraction of the cost of F-35 CAS hours. Or, operate them that way internally-- what a great B-billet/shore tour!

 

[Hotdogs]

Fair enough Pourts, I still disagree with you on some of that. I think there's some confusion about what the point of the conversation is about much like what Pags stated earlier.

 

[pilot_man]

No you weren't. "Big Brother" was nearly >1,500 miles east of the Wasp....in the Persian Gulf....

Additionally, take a look at the target sets and see if you think it required an entire CVW. Here I'll help you...

http://www.africom.mil/tags/operation-odyssey-lightning...

You don't have a fucking clue where the CVN was. Just where you think it was.

You are proving my point for me. Where in those target sets did you need a stealth fighter? I'm asking for a friend.

 

[pourts]

the MEU was there to do some MEU stuff. With F-35's that threat can be a little higher.

This is the point that intelligent people can disagree on. I (and others like pilot_man, etc) contend that the benefit of having F-35s in the MEU wasn't worth the cost:
- compromises to the overall airframe that the A and C have to live with
- cost overruns from an overly complicated aircraft
- delays due to development of an overly complicated aircraft

In the "helping out the CVN" scenario you mention, I don't quite understand how the 6 JSFs on the LHA are going to help the 48 JSFs on the CVN.

Now if we could just get more ass for Swanee so he can grunt up and take that objective!

 

[Treetop Flyer]

This is the point that intelligent people can disagree on. I (and others like pilot_man, etc) contend that the benefit of having F-35s in the MEU wasn't worth the cost:
- compromises to the overall airframe that the A and C have to live with
- cost overruns from an overly complicated aircraft
- delays due to development of an overly complicated aircraft

In the "helping out the CVN" scenario you mention, I don't quite understand how the 6 JSFs on the LHA are going to help the 48 JSFs on the CVN.

Now if we could just get more ass for Swanee so he can grunt up and take that objective!

Well, like it or not the F-35 and F-35B is here. My point about an LHD complementing CVN's in the SCS is that in that high end scenario they could put more F-35's on board to fit the scenario. If things go well, and we want to land on some man made islands, they can bring some choppers back on board. Flexibility is nice to have. Besides, I don't think the Navy has ever planned to have an air wing with 48 F-35's in it. An LHD/A could have about as many F-35's as an air wing, but work with the E-2's, EA, and Aegis of the battle group.

 

[Swanee]

This is the point that intelligent people can disagree on. I (and others like pilot_man, etc) contend that the benefit of having F-35s in the MEU wasn't worth the cost:
- compromises to the overall airframe that the A and C have to live with
- cost overruns from an overly complicated aircraft
- delays due to development of an overly complicated aircraft

In the "helping out the CVN" scenario you mention, I don't quite understand how the 6 JSFs on the LHA are going to help the 48 JSFs on the CVN.

Now if we could just get more ass for Swanee so he can grunt up and take that objective!

Hey man, Sir mix a lot was right. I like big butts and I cannot lie. Do you deny it?

In all seriousness though, I don't understand why we as a service have to try to do almost everything and replicate capabilities that exist in other services. If we pride ourselves on being that niche middleweight fighter, why are we seeking capabilities that put us in a heavyweight title fight? Everyone is right about the F-35, it's like sex with the Duke Lacrosse team, you can kick and scream all you want but in the end it's going to happen (right up until it didn't, but that's another story).

 

[Uncle Fester]

In all seriousness though, I don't understand why we as a service have to try to do almost everything and replicate capabilities that exist in other services. If we pride ourselves on being that niche middleweight fighter, why are we seeking capabilities that put us in a heavyweight title fight?

I think because being a fast-response package deal - doesn't need external support, already fully integrated and trained assault team - is the political and strategic justification for having a Marine Corps. If the Marines needed the same external support as the Army and is so heavy it takes as long to deploy as the Army...why have Marines? It's a bumper sticker justification, and it's not entirely accurate, but it's not entirely wrong.

The MEU is a good middleweight fighter who in the near future could very easily find himself in a street fight with a dude twice his size. He'll need to punch above his weight until his friends can come back him up. In that case, I'm all for making sure he has some brass knuckles in his pocket.

 

[pourts]

I think because being a fast-response package deal - doesn't need external support, already fully integrated and trained assault team - is the political and strategic justification for having a Marine Corps. If the Marines needed the same external support as the Army and is so heavy it takes as long to deploy as the Army...why have Marines? It's a bumper sticker justification, and it's not entirely accurate, but it's not entirely wrong.

The MEU is a good middleweight fighter who in the near future could very easily find himself in a street fight with a dude twice his size. He'll need to punch above his weight until his friends can come back him up. In that case, I'm all for making sure he has some brass knuckles in his pocket.

Well said. Like Swanee said, it doesn't matter anymore because this is happening no matter what, but its worth learning some lessons from the process.

We'll still be driving around in aluminum skinned AAVs that are a complete joke, but at least we spent eleventy billion getting those 6 F-35s into each MEU. Unless they radically change the composition of the ACE (which would be a mistake), I still haven't heard an adequate explanation for what you are going to do with 6 JSF's. Realistically 2 will be down, so call it 4.

 

[Hair Warrior]

I thought those 6 F-35Bs on the LHA were mainly there to provide the air envelope around the LHA so it could operate, protected, in any littoral totally independent of a CSG/ without needing air cover from a nearby CVN; also, for projecting limited air power ashore as needed.

Yes, those F-35Bs would be "part of the day one package" because day one might include deterring/defeating Mr. Fencer, Mr. Flanker, Mr. Frogfoot, etc. from shooting to pieces the LHA and Marines ashore.

Once the operating environment calms down, and those Marines on ship/shore have a less-contested airspace, then by all means load up your 6 F-35Bs with SDB IIs and JDAMs instead of AIM-9Xs and send them hunting.

By the way, the "F-22 + B-2 + AWACS" combo sounds like an awfully poor mission package for NEO/HADR, among other contingencies. You're still gonna need the MEU in the 21st century (and I am not a Marine saying that).

 

[armada1651]

I thought those 6 F-35Bs on the LHA were mainly there to provide the air envelope around the LHA so it could operate, protected, in any littoral totally independent of a CSG/ without needing air cover from a nearby CVN

A complement of 6 F-35Bs does not come close to providing that capability, especially with the stick of the next generation of threat TASMs.

 

[Pags]

I thought those 6 F-35Bs on the LHA were mainly there to provide the air envelope around the LHA so it could operate, protected, in any littoral totally independent of a CSG/ without needing air cover from a nearby CVN; also, for projecting limited air power ashore as needed.

Yes, those F-35Bs would be "part of the day one package" because day one might include deterring/defeating Mr. Fencer, Mr. Flanker, Mr. Frogfoot, etc. from shooting to pieces the LHA and Marines ashore.

Once the operating environment calms down, and those Marines on ship/shore have a less-contested airspace, then by all means load up your 6 F-35Bs with SDB IIs and JDAMs instead of AIM-9Xs and send them hunting.

By the way, the "F-22 + B-2 + AWACS" combo sounds like an awfully poor mission package for NEO/HADR, among other contingencies. You're still gonna need the MEU in the 21st century (and I am not a Marine saying that).

The MEU/ARG is not a mini CSG. the notion of an ARG operating unsupported in "ANY" littoral environment is false.

 

[Recovering LSO]