USN Showdown between Super Hornet and F-35

[Flash]

...Seems like it would have been easier in retrospect if the America class LHA's and our allies light carriers had all decided to add catapults and just dispense with the headache of VSTOL fighters.

Our allies' 'light carriers' don't really have the capacity for catapults and arresting gear except for the HMS Queen Elizabeth-class, and they decided it wasn't worth the extra £billion or more that it was going to cost to fit just one of them out with catapults and arresting gear. To assume they should have put cats and gear on their 'CVL's' ignores the fiscal reality for pretty much every ally we have.

 

[pourts]

I am well aware of the Gator Navy's primary role.

I also agree with the study below that if you are going to build a ship the size of a Midway class carrier (the America class LHA), then it should have catapults and an angled deck. This gives the Navy increased capability and flexibility for a relatively small price increase. The article also proposes a return to 4 ship ARG's.

Too late now, but I wonder how much more capable and how much less expensive the F-35 could have been if it did not have a VSTOL requirement in any of the variants - thus influencing the F-35 vs F-18 debate. I leave that for the go fast guys. As the aircraft is in production and the question moot, this seems to more a shipbuilding question for the future.

In www.realcleardefense.com earlier this week.

http://csbaonline.org/research/publ...new-fleet-architecture-for-the-united-states-

I agree with you on the point that VSTOL compromised the F-35.

Here's the way I always ask the question:
- do you need 4 (2 of the 6 are down for maint) 5th gen air-to-air fighters on an LHD? What are they going to do, CAP for 4 hours (assuming organic tanking from an Osprey) then go home, leaving the other 20 hours uncovered?
- do you need 4 5th gen strikers on the LHD? are you expecting the MEU to start WW3 by itself? Could something less expensive and less advanced suffice for the strike requirement for the MEU? What about a tilt-rotor attack platform that has good range, endurance, and can carry SDBs? What about a turbo-prop light counter insurgency platform with beta that could carry 500# bombs and land on the LHD/LHA without arresting cables?

Taking off and landing a fixed-wing platform on the LHD/LHA without cats or arresting cables would be a technological hurdle, and honestly I don't know if it is possible. But it probably wouldn't have cost as much as the JSF program to figure it out.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Arguing whether the LHAs should be CATOBAR is academically interesting but ultimately moot. They're not escort carriers, and a 27C-style conversion would be expensive and time consuming for a debatable gain in Fleet capability.

It's pointless arguing about the F-35. The sins of the program are legion, no debate about that, but cancelling it now when it's reaching IOC is lunacy. The administration is talking up the Rhino because that's the president's MO - threaten to take your business elsewhere in order to get concessions (mostly lower price) from the supplier. It doesn't fit Fleet needs and anyway that's not how Defense contracts work. He'll be content to take credit for the F-35 unit cost coming down, which it was anyway as the production line matures and FMS get locked in, and all of this talk will go away.

 

[Swanee]

Taking off and landing a fixed-wing platform on the LHD/LHA without cats or arresting cables would be a technological hurdle, and honestly I don't know if it is possible.

From what I've heard (2nd hand rumors) from the Combat Dragon guys- the OV-10G+ could do it with beta, and max landing weight would be similar, if not a little better, than other carrier airplanes.

 

[Pags]

From what I've heard (2nd hand rumors) from the Combat Dragon guys- the OV-10G+ could do it with beta, and max landing weight would be similar, if not a little better, than other carrier airplanes.

That's a mishap waiting to happen. As others have pointed out (and has been pointed out by the Safety Centers favorite slide many times over), a straight deck is a recipe for disaster if the aircraft doesn't stop when it's supposed to. To mention nothing of the ass pain it would entail to get an LHDs deck clear for recovery. For those who haven't done a MEU float, an LHD air plan is easy until the VMA guys show up. You end up having to build a 10hr air plan around the VMA guys requirements to have a clear deck and to have the aft spots clear for recovery. Having some sort of an angled deck on the LHD would have been awesome just to allow the ability to operate VMA while re spotting the RW guys.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

That's a mishap waiting to happen. As others have pointed out (and has been pointed out by the Safety Centers favorite slide many times over), a straight deck is a recipe for disaster if the aircraft doesn't stop when it's supposed to. To mention nothing of the ass pain it would entail to get an LHDs deck clear for recovery. For those who haven't done a MEU float, an LHD air plan is easy until the VMA guys show up. You end up having to build a 10hr air plan around the VMA guys requirements to have a clear deck and to have the aft spots clear for recovery. Having some sort of an angled deck on the LHD would have been awesome just to allow the ability to operate VMA while re spotting the RW guys.

Harriers need a clear deck for about ten minutes to taxi themselves out to launch without spending 45 minutes getting unfolded and spotted. They can land with just two spots open, and taxi off without getting folded or towed or loaded onto wheelie carts. Broken choppers clobbering the deck isn't the problem though, it's those damn jets that takeoff and land on time. Thank God I'm done with that shit.

I agree that something needing a clear deck for recovery on an LHD is a nonstarter. There's no way in hell I'd trust the deck wouldn't have a broken shitter or hours of spinning FCF's clobbering the deck when it's time to recover.

 

[Pags]

Harriers need a clear deck for about ten minutes to taxi themselves out to launch without spending 45 minutes getting unfolded and spotted. They can land with just two spots open, and taxi off without getting folded or towed or loaded onto wheelie carts. Broken choppers clobbering the deck isn't the problem though, it's those damn jets that takeoff and land on time. Thank God I'm done with that shit.

I agree that something needing a clear deck for recovery on an LHD is a nonstarter. There's no way in hell I'd trust the deck wouldn't have a broken shitter or hours of spinning FCF's clobbering the deck when it's time to recover.

So my post came off a tad anti-jet. The point I was trying to make is that the jets and others are mutually exclusive due. As you point out this is primarily due to the RW airframes being unreliable when it comes to being able to fold and bone on time. And when I say RW airframes I mean the shitters because they're the worst when it comes to folding on time and being able to stuff without it becoming a disaster.

So when someone says "free deck recovery of a non-VSTOL FW" my heads gets filled with images of palm treed shitters and ploplters and skids who forgot their wheels on the beach. But if the LHD had an angle I could still play with FW without sweating over cleaning up the shitter recovery on time or the H-1s could FCF all day on the bow while FW flies. A man can dream.

Changing gears, I can readily imagine that people are dreaming of a CVL/CVA because of how it would help a potential future war against China. LHDs are great for low intensity banana war kind of conflicts and for once you have air and naval supremacy. But if you're trying to fight your way in to the 9 dash line against swarms of hypersonic ASCMs and DF-21s raining from the sky the LHD and it's 6 jets is just a nice missile sponge. sure you can make the LHD in to a harrier carrier but it's sortie generation rate, self defense (no organic AEW), and striking power would still be limited by the straight deck. A "new midway" would be attractive because it could carry a MEU for when you need to bop East Timor on the nose but could also trade out the VMM(REIN) for more F-35s and maybe some E-2s or some added F-18s. Who knows where'd those airframes/squadrons would come from but a man can dream.

 

[jmcquate]

it wasn't worth the extra £billion or more that it was going to cost to fit just one of them out with catapults and arresting gear.

Not to mention the cost of designing and building a Typhoon for the RN and the loss of institutional knowledge of flight deck ops on a thru-deck.

I agree that the usefulness of the fixed wing component of the MEU Air Det is debatable. But for the Corps, the real question is the decision the go with the F-35B to replace the AV-8Bs and the F-18C/Ds as opposed to just replacing the Harriers with the F-35Bs and buying Rhinos to replace the legacy Hornets. Who ever made that decision really gambled with the future existence of Marine fixed wing TacAir.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Not to mention the cost of designing and building a Typhoon for the RN and the loss of institutional knowledge of flight deck ops on a thru-deck.

I agree that the usefulness of the fixed wing component of the MEU Air Det is debatable. But for the Corps, the real question is the decision the go with the F-35B to replace the AV-8Bs and the F-18C/Ds as opposed to just replacing the Harriers with the F-35Bs and buying Rhinos to replace the legacy Hornets. Who ever made that decision really gambled with the future existence of Marine fixed wing TacAir.

The Brits were never going to use typhoons on their new carrier. The question was catapults and F-35C's or none and F-35B's

 

[jmcquate]

The Brits were never going to use typhoons on their new carrier. The question was catapults and F-35C's or none and F-35B's

I stand corrected. Should have known that.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Changing gears, I can readily imagine that people are dreaming of a CVL/CVA because of how it would help a potential future war against China. LHDs are great for low intensity banana war kind of conflicts and for once you have air and naval supremacy. But if you're trying to fight your way in to the 9 dash line against swarms of hypersonic ASCMs and DF-21s raining from the sky the LHD and it's 6 jets is just a nice missile sponge. sure you can make the LHD in to a harrier carrier but it's sortie generation rate, self defense (no organic AEW), and striking power would still be limited by the straight deck. A "new midway" would be attractive because it could carry a MEU for when you need to bop East Timor on the nose but could also trade out the VMM(REIN) for more F-35s and maybe some E-2s or some added F-18s. Who knows where'd those airframes/squadrons would come from but a man can dream.

That's pretty much what the 164 page report states. A 4 ship ARG based around a CVL. When it is a low threat, the gators can be in the mix and it is MEU ops as normal. When it is a high threat, the CVL swaps its assault package for a strike package and either joins the CVN for a 2 carrier task group or picks up escorts to provide an avenue of attack from another direction. In other words, we must maximize the flexibility and power of ships that are the size of Midway class carriers.

The last time we had a peer competitor, the Navy numbered almost 600 ships with 16-17 carriers and 4 battleships. During the last quarter century, we have reaped a peace dividend. Now, the threat level is rising quickly and adjustments need to be made. I tend to agree with the analysts who wrote the report that a 4 ship ARG built around a catapult equipped CVL maintains the Marine Corps assault capability but provides the Navy an instantaneous surge capability.

 

[Pags]

LHDs have a secondary Sea Control mission. When built planners envisioned using them as emergency ASW carriers to escort WWIII convoys.

Still not sure where you'd get the extra airplanes for a CVL from. Many of them would probably have to be USMC.

 

[jmcquate]

using them as emergency ASW carriers to escort WWIII convoys.

Some one remembers the SOSUS lines and the old NATO re-supply plans..........gods speed to the old 688 boats.

 

[Pags]

Some one remembers the SOSUS lines and the old NATO re-supply plans..........gods speed to the old 688 boats.

REFORGER for all my friends.

 

[phrogdriver]

If all carriers are for is to drop ordnance on third world shitholes, LHAs and LHDs are plenty capable in that capacity.