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Scooters Forever (A-4 Skyhawk Tribute Thread)

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Cat/A4s: Thanks, that's Olie. A wild 'n crazy guy & great aviator to fly with. He later went to work for FedEx, flew 727's for them for 20 yrs & retired a few years ago. I've lost track but those were the good ol' days at Navy Dallas - at least for lots of us.

As an aside ... when CAL went BOOM in 1983 thanks to the ministrations of one self-serving piece of shit named Francisco A. Lorenzo ...



.... I offered to run 'OLIE's' resume through the mill @ the airline I was w/ at the time ... and as I was a Training Dept Bubba in addition to being a line pilot ... I had 'some' influence over who did/did not get "looked at" in the hiring cycle ...

He said something to the effect of:
"No thanks, I'll stay the course @ CAL as long as I can ... if I can't keep my head above water, I'll call you ... "

Sooooooooooo ... he got FedEx ... that's great. I'm glad he 'made it'. I turned down an offer from FedEx @ 1978 while training their Chief Pilot on the 3-holer' ... he liked my 'act' and offered me a job-- I said "Thanks, but no thanks, I'm happy where I am ... " ... :eek:

The airline I was with at that point in time went tits-up 3 years later ... one of the first of the 'big' deregulation 'victims' ... mebbe I should have taken him up on HIS offer .... ???

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh ... I liked Whales and the Pacific ... and I always maintain: it ALL works out in the end. :)
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
As an aside ... when CAL went BOOM in 1983 thanks to the ministrations of one self-serving piece of shit named Francisco A. Lorenzo ...



.... I offered to run 'OLIE's' resume through the mill @ the airline I was w/ at the time ... and as I was a Training Dept Bubba in addition to being a line pilot ... I had 'some' influence over who did/did not get "looked at" in the hiring cycle ...

He said something to the effect of:
"No thanks, I'll stay the course @ CAL as long as I can ... if I can't keep my head above water, I'll call you ... "

Sooooooooooo ... he got FedEx ... that's great. I'm glad he 'made it'. I turned down an offer from FedEx @ 1978 while training their Chief Pilot on the 3-holer' ... he liked my 'act' and offered me a job-- I said "Thanks, but no thanks, I'm happy where I am ... " ... :eek:

The airline I was with at that point in time went tits-up 3 years later ... one of the first of the 'big' deregulation 'victims' ... mebbe I should have taken him up on HIS offer .... ???

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh ... I liked Whales and the Pacific ... and I always maintain: it ALL works out in the end. :)
Well thanks a lot, A4s. Had you posted a picture of Stalin or even Mohammad Atta, it would not have raised my blood pressure as much as seeing Frank Lorenzo again. :icon_rage

He was hated with cause, not only by his employees, but also by his business partners, competitors, and the government – at least those he had not yet bought off. He was so hated, and had made so many enemies, that he had two full time bodyguards everywhere. And when he was in public, he had four bodyguards. He needed them.

I learned (2nd or 3rd hand) that there were a couple of contracts on his life. The first involved a $300,000 (1980 dollars) contract on his life. It allegedly was brought to the Mafia in Florida. But the Mafia refused the contract. They said Lorenzo was "connected" and they would not touch him.

Some time later, a Samoan was allegedly recruited to terminate Lorenzo for one-tenth the money. After initially agreeing, he subsequently backed out citing his conflicted religious beliefs.


Earlier, in the midst of the austere Carter years, the Navy was shocked to suddenly learn that a majority of TOPGUN instructors had put in their letters, en masse. (They all shared a FAPA membership). Continental – who had earlier preferred FLAPS and Air Force pilots – after a visit to an Aircraft Carrier during flt. ops., suddenly wanted to hire mostly Navy carrier pilots. And they did.

At the time, CAL pilots were the highest paid, with the highest benefits in the industry. Moreover, they were #1 in ammenities and passenger preference.

Many of those TOPGUN instructors and others at NKX went to CAL, only to be later kneecapped by Lorenzo. Many left the airline and flying altogether, forever, and some to much greater success elsewhere. Some stayed with CAL through some bitter years.

Lorenzo lived, but he was thankfully, eventually banned by our government from ever becoming involved in any US airline ever again. And while he was never assassinated, he was disgraced some years later by being allegedly caught by the police with a young male in his car, at night near his home in Houston.

And to disagree, it doesn't all work out in the end. Personally, I was eventually, extremely lucky. But I know many who were devastated, and never really recovered from deregulation, or especially, Frank Lorenzo.

****************************************************************


Olie and I crossed paths a number of times in the Training Command. Later we went through VF-121 as a class of 3 pilots, and maybe 5 RIOs. We all were "must-pumps" and all were close. I remember Olie bought a 9mm since he didn't like his Navy issue. We shot up a canyon north of NKX on the day he got it. Great fun. Haven't seen him since VF-92.
 

GO_AV8_DevilDog

Round 2...
Contributor
Agreed. Almost makes me wish I was old, so I could play along.

Almost.:icon_wink

you can play a long, it's easy :D

Step one: create new account

Step two: Name said account Skeeter____

Step three: look up events, names awards online

Step four: Talk about first hand knowledge of said events and how they got you said awards

Step five: Make sure you only START threads, not participate in them

Step six: get in flame war with mods



See, 6 easy steps! :p
 

BusyBee604

St. Francis/Hugh Hefner Combo!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Lady Jessie Revisited!

skyhawk-pic.jpg

QUESTION: Do any Old, Bold Aviators, Nuggets, or Studs know who "Lady Jessie is/was ... " ??

updatba.gif
ROGER BALL !!

Wow, I've struck GOLD! Browsing through the whole 4+ year old A-4 thread, stumbled upon the above "Lady Jessie" stuffs. Rang a bell as I remembered flying a great X-country in Jess just prior to my retirement in '74. I was a CDR on LATWING Staff @ NAS Lemoore & had open invites to fly when I could with each the last remaining A-4 outfits at NLC (VAs 55, 164, 212 & RAG VA-127).
My logbook says I flew L-Jessie (then Buno 155018) NAS Lemoore to Westover AFB, MA w/fuel stop @ Cannon AFB, NM - flite time 5.6 on 07/19/74
Return: Westover to Lemoore w/fuel stop @ Kirtland AFB, NM - flite time 6.5. My wingman was LTJG Stan Buletza of VA-164.
I was somewhat aware of the history/mystique of Lady Jessie and I felt honored (& thrilled) when A-4 great CDR (later VADM) Stan Arthur VA-164 CO, insisted that I take "his" Lady Jessie on my LAST X/C RON!
I learned much more about this A/C reading A4s & others posts on this thread of 4 years ago.
I clearly remember just prior to takeoff, my east coast family (late Mom & Dad) standing around the A/C, & a bunch of my young Neices/nephews standing up on the wings/fuselage in total AWE. I have a great color photo of this, but it's in deep storage now, I'll get & post it when I can.
To cap it all off, prior to departure, I requested & was granted a high performance takeoff (Sunday afernoon. nil traffic). You ol' A-4 Pros know our HP takeoff was "liftoff - suckup gear & flaps - maintain 50-100' accel to 'bout 400 kts - then honk her up to 'bout a 70-80 deg. climb! Unlike today's birds (Hornets etc.) our climb was spectacular up to 3-4K feet then slowly petered out at which time you did a roll & preceeded out on course."
Those same Nieces/Nephews are today in their 40s, yet in the few occasions I've had to see them over the past 35 years, they still talk about "Uncle Hugh's Airshow" in Lady Jessie & their great "show & tell" at school that week.
Gotta say, a Naval Aviator's dream - especially just prior to retirement.:D
Maybe time to re-energize the A-4 thread??
BzB:icon_smil
 

brownshoe

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Hugh,

Me too, I love going back through this thread, that video posted by Zip is emotional for me to watch. My God what a plane! This plane, a cheap "Timex" took a lickin' and kept on tickin'. (Sorry, you younger guys won't get that.) What an airplane, it evolved over the years. It was a joy to work on, except for that damned ladder, and that starting probe on the earlier A-4 models.:D How I wish I could click my heels and become that bright eyed, bushy tailed, "AOAN" who drove through the gate at, Cecil, heading to 44, in the 60's.

BTW, Ron and I talked Friday, he's mailed me the paper samples for the prints, I should get them early next week, I'll get them out to you right away, we'd like your opinion. And as you could see, Ben loved the t-shirt. (Me too!:))

Steve

Edit: Added Zip's previous video link, it's really great! Old guys in old planes will KICK your ass.


Good stuff!
 

Pugs

Back from the range
None
Wow, I've struck GOLD! Browsing through the whole 4+ year old A-4 thread, stumbled upon the above "Lady Jessie" stuffs. Rang a bell as I remembered flying a great X-country in Jess just prior to my retirement in '74.

Great story and info!
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
This may have been answered previously, but I don't have the time to go thru 25 pages of scooter pr0n...

Why, when the F-4s weren't doing so hot against nimble little jets flown by the man in black pajamas, wasn't there a push to arm the A-4 with AA missiles and make it an FA-4?
 

Old R.O.

Professional No-Load
None
Contributor
This may have been answered previously, but I don't have the time to go thru 25 pages of scooter pr0n...

Why, when the F-4s weren't doing so hot against nimble little jets flown by the man in black pajamas, wasn't there a push to arm the A-4 with AA missiles and make it an FA-4?

There were two squadrons, VSF-1 and VSF-3, that were formed to provide fighter cover for CVS (anti-submarine) carriers. In addition, there were several cruises of these CVS boats that fighter cover was provided by USMC squadrons, or dets from H&MS organizations.

Only one actual deployment was made by a VSF in its original role, but they made several as regular A-4 attack squadrons.

A full story can be found in the Spring 2006 issue of The Hook
(PM me with an e-mail address and I'll send you a pdf of the article)
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
There were two squadrons, VSF-1 and VSF-3, that were formed to provide fighter cover for CVS (anti-submarine) carriers. In addition, there were several cruises of these CVS boats that fighter cover was provided by USMC squadrons, or dets from H&MS organizations.

Only one actual deployment was made by a VSF in its original role, but they made several as regular A-4 attack squadrons.

A full story can be found in the Spring 2006 issue of The Hook
(PM me with an e-mail address and I'll send you a pdf of the article)
I learn something new every day!

I was going to ask if they were fitted to fire Sidewinders, but the Googled link below answered my question.

http://www.ebdir.net/vsf1/index.html
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
This may have been answered previously, but I don't have the time to go thru 25 pages of scooter pr0n...

Why, when the F-4s weren't doing so hot against nimble little jets flown by the man in black pajamas, wasn't there a push to arm the A-4 with AA missiles and make it an FA-4?
Several reasons, but one biggie: It lacked a fighter radar, and a radar integrated weapons system.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
This may have been answered previously, but I don't have the time to go thru 25 pages of scooter pr0n...

Why, when the F-4s weren't doing so hot against nimble little jets flown by the man in black pajamas, wasn't there a push to arm the A-4 with AA missiles and make it an FA-4?

CNO had CAPT Frank Ault look at the less than satisfactory results in aerial combat from 1964-68. The result was called the "Ault Report", which launched many initiatives including teaching the F-4 Phantoms aircrews how to handle a nimble dissimilar adversary like the Mig-17, MiG-19 or MiG-21 flown by VPAF. By the time aerial ensued again over the North, TOPGUN (or Navy Fighter Weapons School) was well-established and Navy F-4 pilots (along with their RIOs) had their way and the exchange climbed to over 20:1 before cessation of hostilities (final results: 12.5:1).

Mig-21_Pilot.jpg


By then, the A-4 was being replaced by the A-7 Corsair in Carrier Air Wings so except for the VSF squadrons Old RO mentioned (in which T R Swartz did score a victory over a MiG-17 with a Zuni rocket), wasn't a need or opportunity to create fighter squadrons equipped with A-4s. However they did serve as a worthy and valuable surrogate in Adversary squadrons for several decades afterwards.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
A-4 vs. F-4.......... Just to add what HJ said...........

The F-4 was in most respects, a far better fighter than the A-4, even though it was not originally designed to be a "Within-Visual-Range" fighter. But while very capable, it was a very difficult aircraft to learn how to fight well because of its high wing loading. (It didn't turn very well.) Making matters worse, the early F-4 crews – before the advent of the Ault Report and the resulting establishment of TOPGUN – were not trained in ACM and especially, DACM (dissimilar air combat maneuvering).

Although the F-4 was a far better fighter than the MiG-17, 19, and even the more capable MiG-21, the early engagements were poor, as HJ said. That was mostly because the MiGs had an extremely tight turning radius, cutting well inside the F-4's wide turn radius. The early, poorly trained F-4 drivers would foolishly try to turn horizontally with the MiGs, instead of using the F-4's strengths - greater turn-rate (but not radius), better thrust-to-weight, better weapon systems, better high speed performance, better acceleration, better visual radius, 2 sets of eyes, better in the vertical, etc.

TOPGUN used TA-4Js initially, then brought in the A-4 Mongoose to simulate the MiG-17 (and T-38/F-5s for MiG-21). In the early part of the training cycle, the A-4s would beat up the F-4s. But once tactics designed for the F-4 were learned, the F-4 would beat the A-4 all day every day (unless you lost sight :eek: ).

Once guys really learned how to fly and fight the F-4, along with its higher performance in speed and vertical capability, look-down radar (in the J), and carrying 4 'winders and 4 Sparrows, it was a mean machine.


One other thing contributed to making the A-4 look more capable vs. the F-4 than it perhaps really was.......

A-4 adversary pilots are picked for their skill and flew strictly ACM, sometimes most everyday. They were very good and over time became extremely good! The best. A fleet-average F-4 driver who isn't flying ACM daily, coming up against an A-4 adversary is usually overmatched, until he gets up to speed with some specific training.

Bottom line: Ask any A-4 and F-4 drivers which aircraft they wanted to go over Indian country and fight MiGs, all (sane) drivers will pick the F-4.
But if its just training in the warning area, many guys would pick the easier to fly, quick and nimble, A-4. ;)
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
Thanks for the replies, gents. Appreciate the old school tutelage...even if I am just a lowly prop puke no-p.
 
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