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Roll of ship when landing on carrier?

#1
Hi - I am very new to this forum and joined because I manage the volunteers at the Intrepid Museum. Part of my job consists of putting together training materials that teach volunteers about the ship and the aircraft. Many of our volunteers are veterans including a number that served on Intrepid (ships's company & air group).

In the pilot house on the bridge, there is a clinometer right above the helm. There are two "bubbles", one that goes to 60 degrees and another that goes to 20 degrees. I've heard several people say that the top one is important to keep an eye on during flight operations. If the ship is heeling by more than a certain number of degrees, aircraft cannot be recovered. Is this true? If so, at what point (how many degrees) is no longer possible to recover aircraft?

Many thanks!
 

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Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
#2
I couldn't tell you what the limits were on the Fighting I, but (if I remember right) flight ops on the OHP Frigates were allowed up to 6° pitch and 15° roll in the daytime. I bet if you casually drop that in conversation you'll get a few smiles from the smallboy sailors in the volunteer group :).
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
#4
Of note, inclinometers aren't supposed to be used as the primary roll/pitch measurement, since the ship's gyro is stabilized and much more accurate.

I may have told this story before, but whatevs...

After doing a rescue of a couple of boat roaches that were put in a bad spot by the ship during a storm, we were flying over Mom getting our numbers and waiting for Green Deck. The LSO stated roll was holding around 8* and we should be good. Right after he unkeyed the mic, we watched the ship's mast swing WAY out to the side and back the other way.

The LSO came back and said that was about a 15-16* roll and to give him a moment while he "corrected" the bridge crew so they could come up with a new, more steady course.

Yuck.
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
#5
These days, CRUDES (and I'm sure the CVNs) have "Moriah" - a display and decision aid for managing the wind envelopes. As was noted above, it takes pitch/roll inputs off of the gyro.
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
#6
These days, CRUDES (and I'm sure the CVNs) have "Moriah" - a display and decision aid for managing the wind envelopes. As was noted above, it takes pitch/roll inputs off of the gyro.
Moriah? In our days we just called it the helo DET. As LSO we constantly tried to offer the OOD solutions to the wind/pitch/roll envelope. We were told to "Knock it off!" We were just using a wiz wheel. They were using the wind hunting circle approach.
 

DanMa1156

Land of the Milk and Honey.
pilot
Contributor
#7
I can't speak to the fixed wing side of things, but as far as helicopters go, the limits on pitch and roll change based on both the class of ship and Type/Model/Series of helicopter. I seem to recall having mostly 6 degree roll limits (to either side) which weren't uncommonly seen on DDGs in the Pacific.
 

Pags

Well-Known Member
pilot
#8
LHDs have what appears to be the exact same clinometer in the pilot house and tower. The people on the bridge barely noticed it because managing flight ops is up to the Air Boss in tower. However, LHD has no pitch and roll limits so it was just a tool for SA.

I can't remember if MORIAH had pitch and roll displayed, I recall that it was just relative wind speed and direction but it's been awhile. MORIAH didn't preclude the crack bridge teams from using the wind hunting circle nor did it prevent many spirited phone calls or personal visits to the bridge from the "Aft Captain" to provide pointed feedback to the bridge watchstanders on their shiphandling skills and general worth as Naval Officers.
 
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Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
#10
Moriah? In our days we just called it the helo DET. As LSO we constantly tried to offer the OOD solutions to the wind/pitch/roll envelope. We were told to "Knock it off!" We were just using a wiz wheel. They were using the wind hunting circle approach.
Cruising on a DD, one of the baby SWOs returned from a week onboard a shiny new DDG, full of enthusiasm about the bells and whistles on the modern platform. "They have this computerized thing that tells them how to get the winds in limits for flight ops... their OODs don't even know how to find the true winds!" To which one of my fellow pilots quipped, "Yeah, neither do any of you f#$*&% idiots."
 

AllYourBass

Mistrap Queen
pilot
#11
MORIAH is super capable. It stores all the pertinent wind envelopes (selectable by day/night as well as aircraft) and has multiple displays you can click through. The one Pags posted is the most common page to leave up, and I think it just takes one extra button press to get true winds. The little green dot moves around on a live basis, so you'll see it flicker green-to-red if they're riding the edge of the envelope.

The display is replicated (at least) in the LSO shack, Tower, Bridge and CO's cabin.

A useful feature that we enjoyed as LSOs but Bridge seems to often neglect is an envelope calculator tool that will generate the Fox Corpen required to meet a particular wind solution. It wasn't overly rare for the LSO to provide an FC "suggestion" to Bridge when they were strugging to find a course that worked for winds, which I didn't grasp at the time since Bridge has the same tool in MORIAH available to them. Looking back, they probably insisted on moboards...
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
#12
...an envelope calculator tool that will generate the Fox Corpen required to meet a particular wind solution.
Aviators shouldn't care about Fox Corpen, just BRC! <glares sternly>

I know it's not really an issue on the Romeo since you can display everything in either Mag or True, but it was always a battle with knucklheads on the bridge in high MAGVAR locations with the Bravo (it could only display TACAN in magnetic mode). The exchange would usually just end in me asking them what their MAGVAR was on their chart and then I'd True Virgins Make Dull Companions At Weddings to the FC number they gave me and pass it to the helo.
 
#13
Aviators shouldn't care about Fox Corpen, just BRC! <glares sternly>

...….me asking them what their MAGVAR was on their chart and then I'd True Virgins Make Dull Companions At Weddings to the FC number they gave me and pass it to the helo.
That sounds like old school real aviation work, surely you jest and are pulling our leg.

ATIS
 

RedFive

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
#15
6° pitch and 15° roll . . . smallboy sailors...:)
For the OP, we don't actually land at roll 15.....we time it and wait for her to come upright and attempt to set it down then. Usually works...haha. When you're independent steaming and there's noplace else to go, the seas are shit, the bridge is shit, you're low on gas, it's night, and you don't want to miss midrats, sometimes you just make shit work. :D

My FFG did not have MORIAH and they sucked at MOBOARDs. So I wrote them an excel program to figure out the winds, they still had trouble because...SWO. :mad:
 
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